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      02-18-2022, 08:57 PM   #23
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You guys are complaining about range... I can agree with you, however why hasn't anyone brought up the increasing grill sizes? I personally don't think i'll be buying a BMW soon due to the gigantuous grill growth rates.

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      02-18-2022, 09:19 PM   #24
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Agree to this but the range thing for some people is probably not about daily drive range but more about that "What if time" for example: What if i need to haul these gianormous (insert any random thing here) can i do it? Then the answer will probably be no for those people.

Those what if moments are rare of-course this doesn't apply to all some people do those "rare" things more on daily basis then most of us do. So they wouldn't look at an EV to begin with because they don't met their demand either way. So in that aspect i believe we will still need Diesels for a while longer but i do believe Petrol will be phased out before Diesel will.

But yeah for most people they will do fine with today's EV's range, but what i find more annoying about EVs at this point at this time is the weight of the cars, if manufactures could focus a bit more on reducing their weight it would both improve range and the dynamic of the cars.

My best bet is if BMW would focus more on reducing the weight of the car the range will improve on its own, with that at the same time keeping up with OTA updates improving efficiency of current tech so people can feel a bit "safe" or "comfortable" with their choice of car so it wont feel obsolete in a year or two.
I just find it odd to shop for a vehicle based on rare occasions vs what you truly use it for daily.

I understand the person who commutes 300 miles daily for work, but I don't understand the person who commutes 300 miles twice a year.

For me, I can charge each night if I need to on my garage, I drive 95% city, and I drive literally 2 days out of the week at less than 15 miles total since I work at home. My range will likely be closer to 350-400 miles because its 95% city driving.

Having a low maintanence vehicle with the luxury of having a "full tank of fuel each time I press the start button from home," this car works for me.

I can still take road trips, rare, but the range is sufficient to DC fast charge every 150 or 200 miles if needed on EA networks which is free for 2 years @ 30 mins/session.

But yes, the weight of this thing is rather high. My M4cs is about 3,650 lbs, so adjusting to 4,883lbs (DIN weight) will be different once mine arrives, but I rarely use my current car for what it was intended for. 95% of the time I'm doing a grocery store/liquior store run with it, so the M50 makes sense for me as Florida has crazy rain storms between May-Oct so I do need AWD, with the added bonus of acceleration that I likely won't use much.
I just went from a Chevy Tahoe to a 540. I sacrificed the spur of the moment weekend trips to the hardware store for more pleasant daily driving and road tripping. I can make that compromise, especially when my wife has an SUV that's almost as big as the Tahoe (Lexus GX). I can't beat the hell out of it like a Chevy but I can make it work.

But I have family that lives 200 miles away and take a 500 mile trip to the beach once a year. So maybe 5 times a year I need decent range. That's enough for me not to compromise it, and that's pretty typical for people in the mid-southern US.

I drove 200 miles today, the last 80 or so into decent hills (Nashville TN). My 540 says I can go another 320+ without stopping for gas. Hard to beat that peace of mind.
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      02-19-2022, 04:03 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by spool twice View Post
I just find it odd to shop for a vehicle based on rare occasions vs what you truly use it for daily.

I understand the person who commutes 300 miles daily for work, but I don't understand the person who commutes 300 miles twice a year.

For me, I can charge each night if I need to on my garage, I drive 95% city, and I drive literally 2 days out of the week at less than 15 miles total since I work at home. My range will likely be closer to 350-400 miles because its 95% city driving.

Having a low maintanence vehicle with the luxury of having a "full tank of fuel each time I press the start button from home," this car works for me.

I can still take road trips, rare, but the range is sufficient to DC fast charge every 150 or 200 miles if needed on EA networks which is free for 2 years @ 30 mins/session.

But yes, the weight of this thing is rather high. My M4cs is about 3,650 lbs, so adjusting to 4,883lbs (DIN weight) will be different once mine arrives, but I rarely use my current car for what it was intended for. 95% of the time I'm doing a grocery store/liquior store run with it, so the M50 makes sense for me as Florida has crazy rain storms between May-Oct so I do need AWD, with the added bonus of acceleration that I likely won't use much.
So do i for my self i would not base my purchase of a car on those rare occasions most people don't but for some people that is an another excuse to look the other way and not buy a EV yet. Frankly i am not even sure that the current iterations of EVs will ever be able to pull that off maybe not with lithium ion tech battery's.

For me who makes regular trips around 4-5 times years during all seasons to our vacation home witch is around 202 miles away from home or 326 km in metric distance. I care quite a lot about the range but have chosen the the m50 over the 40 and will have to make a stop on the way down and home and usually one of those stops is around 15 min to buy some food go to the rest room etc. And that little rest stop will give me in 15 min from 34% battery to 70% sense that place where i stop has a couple of 350 kw charger. But here is also another reason for some people to not make the jump and i can feel this a bit to even though i have driven i3 for quite some time, it is that when i arrive to that specific charger if it will be occupied i have no other alternatives on the road down there so that 15 min rest could become an 30-50 min if not more depending how many more people is there and charging. So suddenly my 4 hour road trips turns to a 5 hour trip, And that is where regular fuels has the advantage still, being in so many places and topping up a car goes fast. So this for EVs will be an obstacle for some time more until more of the petrol companies also starts investing in chargers then they can offer both and earn money on both.

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Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
You don't purchase based on "maybe I want to take a road trip" and they don't design for 400 miles when the typical car rarely travels 100 miles a day let alone 300.

If you always plug in you will have a full tank days.

100 miles a day during the week every day amounts to 25k miles a year.

When I was going to Silicon Valley everyday O would do about 80 miles round trip. Add weekends and I could hit 24k miles in a year. But none of that was a 300 mile trip.

Adding the extra battery or more lightweight material to get more range will only increase cost for the 95% to benefit the 5%. That is a horrible tradeoff.

200+/- works for me. As long as I can get to Laguna Seca and back I'm golden.
As i mention earlier most people don't buy on that term but for some people that is a reason not to make the jump to EV even if it ticks all the other boxes it dosn't tick that certain one and it makes them refuse the jump. Again i find this weird also, but Humans ain't always logical in our decision making witch at times can cause issues.

I always charge my car at home it is easy and i have never ever had range anxiety in my day to day life. Car is always topped up in the morning and pre heated same with work i have all the possibility to charge their also free of charge.

But yes the solution isn't always adding more battery cells that tends to increase weight for very little range gain as with air planes there is a certain amount if weight an air plane should have and how much fuel it should take on based on the current weight of it witch can cause a negative spiral where adding more weight causes more fuel consumption and more emissions so yeah weight is a factor in this also.

So same goes with cars adding more weight isn't good. But as with the i3 where BMW worked a lot with carbon tech and also gained the money back on the R&D around the car witch they also said they did. Then it shouldn't have been to hard maybe making roof, trunk, hood in carbon-fibre parts reducing more weight or adding more components in carbon-fibre, considering the amount they have invested in this, that should not have been an issue but then again the i4 was probably never meant to have those parts or is reserved for some GT version up ahead witch is more track focused who knows. But if we are to go by the numbers on the configuration site, where adding the carbon package for 31-33k gives you a but more range not much but a bit, and with that they could have made the carbon package more in line with adding stuff like lightweight alloys, roof, trunk etc... i am sure more people would have chosen that package both because of range gain but also helping to reduce the cars weight 2.2 tonnes is heavy.
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      02-19-2022, 05:22 AM   #26
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Why do the 20s have such poor range? Wheel and tire weight? Stickiness of tire?
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      02-19-2022, 06:52 AM   #27
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These are the demands of owning an EV. I also second the point about who the M50 can do over the Tesla with the sacrifice of range taken in to account. The M50 is built to move! We've seen the various lines of M cars get heavier and heavier of the years. But those cars still perform.

And about the front facia. The 3er EV is coming which will look at lot more like "normal" for those who can't take the grill.

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      02-19-2022, 09:46 AM   #28
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Let's be honest people. The vast majority of BMWs are initially sold as low mileage leases and therefore rarely if ever go on extended roadtrips. People either fly or use another vehicle. Just like owners of Tesla.

The range of theae vehicles falls squarely within the profile of a typical owner. BMW has the data after all.

As for comments on towing with a BMW sedan. It's about as frequent as people wanting to take an X5 off roading. Basically just a hair above never.
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      02-19-2022, 10:02 AM   #29
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Quote:
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Why do the 20s have such poor range? Wheel and tire weight? Stickiness of tire?
Contact patch size and stickiness of the tire.

An M50 with the 19" wheels like the e40 only differs in range by about 13 miles or so.

282 vs 270.
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      02-19-2022, 10:48 AM   #30
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Why do the 20s have such poor range? Wheel and tire weight? Stickiness of tire?
Rolling resistence (weight, tire compound, size of contact patch).
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      02-19-2022, 04:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Let's be honest people. The vast majority of BMWs are initially sold as low mileage leases and therefore rarely if ever go on extended roadtrips. People either fly or use another vehicle. Just like owners of Tesla.

The range of theae vehicles falls squarely within the profile of a typical owner. BMW has the data after all.

As for comments on towing with a BMW sedan. It's about as frequent as people wanting to take an X5 off roading. Basically just a hair above never.
Spot on! Exactly 💯%
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      02-19-2022, 04:25 PM   #32
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If these things really have significantly limited range - and thus fall in to somewhat a "supplemental" role for some rather than a replacement role for all, are we really accomplishing what we are trying to accomplish?

Is more cars driving the same number of total miles a good outcome? Is it more "green"? It takes a lot of energy to build these things. If the EV is an extra for putting around town (even for some portion of customers) is that success?
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      02-20-2022, 05:35 AM   #33
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I agree with you completely. But for someone who oh has one car. It makes very little sense to have a second car to go the distance because your EV can't.
Yeah EVs are definitely more difficult for single car households in the current-state. It's certainly doable but I understand not wanting to do it. Same for people who tow, live in super cold climates, etc.

The reality is consumers have a wide spread of needs, and no one car or powertrain (ICE vs EV) is perfect for everyone. Right now, EVs make sense for a subset of consumers. That subset will continue to grow as range increases, prices come down, and infrastructure expands.

My issue with buying an EV right now is the rate of improvement is so rapid, that if you buy now your options will be so much better in 3 - 5 years. That's fine with something like an iPhone 4, but not a $60K asset.
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      02-20-2022, 08:02 AM   #34
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
I agree with you completely. But for someone who oh has one car. It makes very little sense to have a second car to go the distance because your EV can't.
Yeah EVs are definitely more difficult for single car households in the current-state. It's certainly doable but I understand not wanting to do it. Same for people who tow, live in super cold climates, etc.

The reality is consumers have a wide spread of needs, and no one car or powertrain (ICE vs EV) is perfect for everyone. Right now, EVs make sense for a subset of consumers. That subset will continue to grow as range increases, prices come down, and infrastructure expands.

My issue with buying an EV right now is the rate of improvement is so rapid, that if you buy now your options will be so much better in 3 - 5 years. That's fine with something like an iPhone 4, but not a $60K asset.
Yeah exactly I said that years ago. A 50k car now will be outdated in a few months. Then again I don't see that never being the case. Although they can be updated to new software versions unlike ICE cars
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      02-20-2022, 08:04 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterbelly View Post
If these things really have significantly limited range - and thus fall in to somewhat a "supplemental" role for some rather than a replacement role for all, are we really accomplishing what we are trying to accomplish?

Is more cars driving the same number of total miles a good outcome? Is it more "green"? It takes a lot of energy to build these things. If the EV is an extra for putting around town (even for some portion of customers) is that success?
The point is to reduce a large number of pollution sources down to one slightly less polluting source.
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      02-20-2022, 08:06 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStanman View Post
Yeah EVs are definitely more difficult for single car households in the current-state. It's certainly doable but I understand not wanting to do it. Same for people who tow, live in super cold climates, etc.

The reality is consumers have a wide spread of needs, and no one car or powertrain (ICE vs EV) is perfect for everyone. Right now, EVs make sense for a subset of consumers. That subset will continue to grow as range increases, prices come down, and infrastructure expands.

My issue with buying an EV right now is the rate of improvement is so rapid, that if you buy now your options will be so much better in 3 - 5 years. That's fine with something like an iPhone 4, but not a $60K asset.
Theae cars are going to be leased rather than bought, but ya who's going to want a used model. Are there any numbers for the Tesla used market
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      02-20-2022, 06:11 PM   #37
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Right now a good PHEV makes waaayyy more sense to me.

I just bought a Mini Cooper SE (full EV) for my business and using it until I get the full wrap finalized.
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      02-20-2022, 09:01 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
You don't purchase based on "maybe I want to take a road trip" and they don't design for 400 miles when the typical car rarely travels 100 miles a day let alone 300.

If you always plug in you will have a full tank days.

100 miles a day during the week every day amounts to 25k miles a year.

When I was going to Silicon Valley everyday O would do about 80 miles round trip. Add weekends and I could hit 24k miles in a year. But none of that was a 300 mile trip.

Adding the extra battery or more lightweight material to get more range will only increase cost for the 95% to benefit the 5%. That is a horrible tradeoff.

200+/- works for me. As long as I can get to Laguna Seca and back I'm golden.
I think people have made up their minds on this. It doesn't matter how many times I share my own experiences driving 1000 miles or more across the US in my 222 mile rated EV and making good time compared to my old X3. When I meet someone who thinks the charging infrastructure is not ready or the range isn't enough, it's just not likely to change their minds, no matter what data I share or how old their info is.

I'm not saying there are zero weak points or that more range would not be welcome, but people talk like it's just a dealbreaker for everyone that maybe there's a remote highway in Wyoming that isn't doable.

The reality is that you can now go pretty much anywhere on the freeway and have multiple stop options to charge up, and you might be surprised to find you can drive all day and the trip is maybe only 30 minutes longer overall than it would have been in an ICE. I can only speak from experience for I-15 and I-80, but you've got a 350kw DC option every 80 miles on average. They're frequent enough you hardly have to plan.
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      02-21-2022, 10:38 AM   #39
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wheelz and tires always effect range, same with a trailer. ev or ice
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      02-22-2022, 07:41 AM   #40
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There are many charging station brands to choose from, some even local public municipalities that aren't listed but would be on a GPS map.

In my area, the city has a few DC fast charging stations that aren't listed unless you visit the county/city website.

Other than that, you can choose from:

-EA
-EVgo
-ChargePoint

I'm sure there are more, but when I look at the full map, each state seems to have there fair share, but I'm not certain if they are all fully juiced up or if they are dummy stations until they decide to activate them.
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      02-23-2022, 08:32 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by "Waterbelly;28606940"
If these things really have significantly limited range - and thus fall in to somewhat a "supplemental" role for some rather than a replacement role for all, are we really accomplishing what we are trying to accomplish?

Is more cars driving the same number of total miles a good outcome? Is it more "green"? It takes a lot of energy to build these things. If the EV is an extra for putting around town (even for some portion of customers) is that success?
The point is to reduce a large number of pollution sources down to one slightly less polluting source.
The whole thought process of forcing EVs on consumers doesn't make sense to me given the data shows the bulk of emissions come from energy production and industrial uses, when combined. Yes, transportation makes up about 30% but that includes all transportation (cargo ships, trucks, trains, airlines, etc.). If we apply the same efforts to these other emission sources we'll see a much greater reduction. Plus where does the electricity for the extra energy come from for all these EVs?
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      02-23-2022, 08:41 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterbelly View Post
If these things really have significantly limited range - and thus fall in to somewhat a "supplemental" role for some rather than a replacement role for all, are we really accomplishing what we are trying to accomplish?

Is more cars driving the same number of total miles a good outcome? Is it more "green"? It takes a lot of energy to build these things. If the EV is an extra for putting around town (even for some portion of customers) is that success?
The point is to reduce a large number of pollution sources down to one slightly less polluting source.
The whole thought process of forcing EVs on consumers doesn't make sense to me given the data shows the bulk of emissions come from energy production and industrial uses, when combined. Yes, transportation makes up about 30% but that includes all transportation (cargo ships, trucks, trains, airlines, etc.). If we apply the same efforts to these other emission sources we'll see a much greater reduction. Plus where does the electricity for the extra energy come from for all these EVs?
They are applying similar efforts to other forms of transportation. Ex Low sulphur marine diesel. CNG buses etc.

You can find the data but it appears after year 4-5 a hybrid/BEV begins to pull ahead of ICE in terms of lifecycle emissions.
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      02-23-2022, 10:41 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Waterbelly;28606940"
If these things really have significantly limited range - and thus fall in to somewhat a "supplemental" role for some rather than a replacement role for all, are we really accomplishing what we are trying to accomplish?

Is more cars driving the same number of total miles a good outcome? Is it more "green"? It takes a lot of energy to build these things. If the EV is an extra for putting around town (even for some portion of customers) is that success?
The point is to reduce a large number of pollution sources down to one slightly less polluting source.
The whole thought process of forcing EVs on consumers doesn't make sense to me given the data shows the bulk of emissions come from energy production and industrial uses, when combined. Yes, transportation makes up about 30% but that includes all transportation (cargo ships, trucks, trains, airlines, etc.). If we apply the same efforts to these other emission sources we'll see a much greater reduction. Plus where does the electricity for the extra energy come from for all these EVs?
The cars we drive around aren't making the difference but they're an easier thing to tackle.
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      02-24-2022, 08:15 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Waterbelly View Post
If these things really have significantly limited range - and thus fall in to somewhat a "supplemental" role for some rather than a replacement role for all, are we really accomplishing what we are trying to accomplish?

Is more cars driving the same number of total miles a good outcome? Is it more "green"? It takes a lot of energy to build these things. If the EV is an extra for putting around town (even for some portion of customers) is that success?
The point is to reduce a large number of pollution sources down to one slightly less polluting source.
The whole thought process of forcing EVs on consumers doesn't make sense to me given the data shows the bulk of emissions come from energy production and industrial uses, when combined. Yes, transportation makes up about 30% but that includes all transportation (cargo ships, trucks, trains, airlines, etc.). If we apply the same efforts to these other emission sources we'll see a much greater reduction. Plus where does the electricity for the extra energy come from for all these EVs?
The cars we drive around aren't making the difference but they're an easier thing to tackle.
And what auto manufacturers won't reveal too easily is that the EV's probably have a better ROI for them than ICE cars. Wich the sofistication of ICE cars today I would think they save quite a bit with an EV, a lot more software programming than mechanical engineering.

I wouldn't think about it too much, manufacturers are ramping up huge amount of credits from there EV offerings to be able to sell ICE cars for a long time. It's not because some manufacturers jump on the hype train and declare stupid stuff like all there cars will be EVs that everyone is going to do it.
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