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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions G20 3 Series vs Tesla Model 3

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      07-31-2019, 03:34 PM   #507
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Strange, a game changer like the Tesla 3 is criticised pages and pages about fit and finish. Maybe, we miss the point then?

When I remember my test drive, it felt planted and poised, haptical quality was ok (only just), performance was mind blowing, running costs are about half that of a comparable BMW. I immediately had the idea that this is a car for the future.

About fit and finish, it's important it doesn't crackle and squeakes which it didn't. My F10 is much "looser" and is less stiff. Although it's difficult to judge on a new car, T3 felt rock solid.
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      08-05-2019, 12:26 AM   #508
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      08-05-2019, 01:50 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
Strange, a game changer like the Tesla 3 is criticised pages and pages about fit and finish. Maybe, we miss the point then?
I'm sure some members here dislike Tesla or their products. But others have at least some passing curiosity in the brand even if we don't plan to buy one imminently.

A lot of the angst you see directed toward Tesla is because most members are here to talk about BMW and their products. Sure, we welcome criticism and interesting comparisons between BMW models and other makes' competing models, but it can reach a critical point to where it just becomes tiresome.
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      08-05-2019, 07:59 PM   #510
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I'm looking forward to when Tesla's are easier to own in the city. I live in a city and park my BMW in a garaged spot, but my building wouldn't allow for an electric charger to be installed, and it doesn't have EV parking spots with chargers. Most folks that have cars in the city park on the street, meaning they definitely cannot have charges. Hopefully this improves with time, as for now, EV's are ruled out for this demographic.
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      08-07-2019, 01:54 AM   #511
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Besides the boring interior, model 3 is a really fun car. The acceleration and handling really impressed me during my test drive. However, I am still a BMW fan boy, but feeling pessimistic about BMW and internal combustion engine's future. So I still want to buy a BMW before goes bankrupt and reorganize.
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      08-07-2019, 12:29 PM   #512
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Waiting for Tesla to add adaptive suspension to the Model 3 like they did for the latest Model S.
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      08-12-2019, 03:21 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
Waiting for Tesla to add adaptive suspension to the Model 3 like they did for the latest Model S.
Elon says that's no longer under consideration for the Model 3, at least for now.

Not surprising, really, given how well it's selling.
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      08-12-2019, 04:12 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Elon says that's no longer under consideration for the Model 3, at least for now.

Not surprising, really, given how well it's selling.
And how little it needs a fancy suspension at all.
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      08-12-2019, 04:14 PM   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
Waiting for Tesla to add adaptive suspension to the Model 3 like they did for the latest Model S.
Elon says that's no longer under consideration for the Model 3, at least for now.

Not surprising, really, given how well it's selling.
They've been discounting the performance model quite a bit, so they could change their minds and add it to a list of options like full self driving. They even said free unlimited supercharging was unsustainable yet they brought it back for s and x to boost sales. Model S raven is now faster with more range because of the permanent magnet motor up front from model 3 which is more efficient and has better regen. Thus more power from the same battery.
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      08-12-2019, 06:18 PM   #516
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And how little it needs a fancy suspension at all.
Agreed - unless they went for a magnetorheological system - then I'd be interested.
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      08-15-2019, 12:49 AM   #517
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Agreed - unless they went for a magnetorheological system - then I'd be interested.
I remember the MDX having that suspension on the sport model in late 2000s. Haven't seen that much recently - most manufacturers, Tesla, Porsche etc seem to be going with air suspensions.

Agreed that the 3P suspension is terrific as is - doesn't need anything fancier (or that can cause maintenance problems in a few years time).
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      08-15-2019, 12:56 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
I'm sure some members here dislike Tesla or their products. But others have at least some passing curiosity in the brand even if we don't plan to buy one imminently.

A lot of the angst you see directed toward Tesla is because most members are here to talk about BMW and their products. Sure, we welcome criticism and interesting comparisons between BMW models and other makes' competing models, but it can reach a critical point to where it just becomes tiresome.
It's helpful to understand your perspective and thank you for sharing it.

Perhaps it will also be helpful to know that many of us who love Tesla have loved BMWs. I still love the E series cars (owner and E39, E46 and E90) and would still love to see the brand come up with a great car. Just haven't seen one in the last decade from BMW, while almost every other brand has gotten ahead of Bavaria, EV or ICE. It's more than disappointing for longtime bmw fans like myself to see the company let down it's most loyal customers for so long.

Maybe the CEO change will help. We shall see.
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      08-15-2019, 02:39 AM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ras550 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
I'm sure some members here dislike Tesla or their products. But others have at least some passing curiosity in the brand even if we don't plan to buy one imminently.

A lot of the angst you see directed toward Tesla is because most members are here to talk about BMW and their products. Sure, we welcome criticism and interesting comparisons between BMW models and other makes' competing models, but it can reach a critical point to where it just becomes tiresome.
It's helpful to understand your perspective and thank you for sharing it.

Perhaps it will also be helpful to know that many of us who love Tesla have loved BMWs. I still love the E series cars (owner and E39, E46 and E90) and would still love to see the brand come up with a great car. Just haven't seen one in the last decade from BMW, while almost every other brand has gotten ahead of Bavaria, EV or ICE. It's more than disappointing for longtime bmw fans like myself to see the company let down it's most loyal customers for so long.

Maybe the CEO change will help. We shall see.
The bmw product line has changed, but then again so has that of every other manufacturer as well. As we know, there are many factors to blame for this (emissions regulations, fuel economy regulations, passenger safety, pedestrian safety, shifting market preferences, etc). I think bmw has also tried too hard to please the masses. They've been a bit conservative, and as a result, have produced vehicles that aren't particularly polarizing, or offensive to anyone, but not particularly inspiring either. Despite these evolutions, I think that there are still some things to like about the modern bmw product line. The 2 series, especially the m2 has been compared to previous generations of bmw sports sedans and coupes. I think the mainstream car journalists have been particularly critical of bmw for some time now as well, and my feeling is that it goes beyond simply not enjoying the current crop of cars as much as the previous iterations.

For example I happened to be thumbing through the Aug edition of MT, and came across the articles where the g20 330i was compared to the g70, model 3, and separately the Alfa Romeo Giulia. Of course they were hard on the bimmer while lauding the other cars with all sorts of praise and compliments. As I looked into the stats though, I was surprised to see that the 330i gave the best skid pad reading of 0.95g, which is fantastic for a four door sedan. The closest competitor in their test was the g70 with 0.94. Their beloved Giulia was off by quite a bit with something like 0.91. The 330i finished 2nd to the model 3 in the figure 8 course as well. In fact it seemed like the main issue with the 330i was the stiff suspension. Never before have I seen a sedan achieve 0.95g of lateral grip and receive harsh criticism for being too stiff. Typically a stiff suspension is the price to pay for having a car that handles superbly, like the g20 with track package. I've driven some of the e90 generation, and those suspensions were rock hard and unyielding. Yet mags like MT raved about them, the same way they currently rave about the g70 and Giulia. I'm sorry but I have to call B.S. on that. Unfortunately though, car enthusiasts tend to be an impressionable group. Despite what the average enthusiast will tell you, they base their impressions of a given make and model, to a large extent, on reviews and others' opinions more than their own impressions from behind the wheel.
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      08-15-2019, 10:57 AM   #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
At one time BMW did suspensions better than any other manufacturer. The playing field is more even now, and BMW has lost some of its mojo in that area.
Model 3 is the perfect example. It handles like a BMW should.
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      08-15-2019, 11:53 AM   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post

For example I happened to be thumbing through the Aug edition of MT, and came across the articles where the g20 330i was compared to the g70, model 3, and separately the Alfa Romeo Giulia. Of course they were hard on the bimmer while lauding the other cars with all sorts of praise and compliments. As I looked into the stats though, I was surprised to see that the 330i gave the best skid pad reading of 0.95g, which is fantastic for a four door sedan. The closest competitor in their test was the g70 with 0.94. Their beloved Giulia was off by quite a bit with something like 0.91. The 330i finished 2nd to the model 3 in the figure 8 course as well. In fact it seemed like the main issue with the 330i was the stiff suspension. Never before have I seen a sedan achieve 0.95g of lateral grip and receive harsh criticism for being too stiff. Typically a stiff suspension is the price to pay for having a car that handles superbly, like the g20 with track package. I've driven some of the e90 generation, and those suspensions were rock hard and unyielding. Yet mags like MT raved about them, the same way they currently rave about the g70 and Giulia. I'm sorry but I have to call B.S. on that. Unfortunately though, car enthusiasts tend to be an impressionable group. Despite what the average enthusiast will tell you, they base their impressions of a given make and model, to a large extent, on reviews and others' opinions more than their own impressions from behind the wheel.
The Model 3 is the new kid on the block, so no previous generations to benchmark it against. That's at the core of bias. Same thing with the G70. A lot of these reviewers are old guys and they are letting their nostalgia interfere with their objective opinions on the G20. Cars from 10 to 20 years ago just had better feedback with mechanical steering and lighter curb-weight.

The Model 3 has a one-of-a-kind electric drive train that wins most reviewers over without giving a second thought to the rest of the car... but the rest of the car is inferior in my opinion. Obviously this is my objective opinion, but I do not like the exterior or interior styling and I don't like how the car's entire control system is relegated to that quirky center dash display. The seats don't bolster and support like i want either. BMW's new iDrive is a full step ahead and is an overall better package with at least two but sometimes as many as five different ways to interface with the cars various systems.

To disclose my own personal bias against Tesla: I was in the market for a Model S back in 2016 and I would spend hours scouring the official Tesla user forums to better understand the car. One huge red flag back then was how many people would post problem (often MAJOR problems) with overheating, battery failure, and electrical systems failure that left them stranded road-side or stuck in the garage. The posting of these issues was numerous enough to give pause. But Tesla moderators would tell the poster to seek official support channels and they then delete the topics from the forum history. This was clearly a deliberate attempt to control brand image and make the car appear more reliable than it really was. I quickly got the impression I didn't want to have anything to do with hand build electric cars with overly complicated electrical systems. I shudder to think how many of these cars are for sale on AutoTrader right now.

I've read the Model 3 is more simple in construction and design, but the fact still remains they have an underdeveloped production process and they are throwing these cars together in an almost haphazard way to meet production targets. Naturally, this means there is no guarantee you will receive a problem free car.

And in regards to performance and motoring heritage: The stock Model 3 and the Model S cannot achieve official Nurburgring times because they become speed limited due to overheating... and the Model 3/Model S cannot continuously maintain speeds higher than 120MPH on the Autobahn. With BMW, each successive generation is like polishing a diamond and they are tuned for Germany's higher standards of road performance.
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      08-15-2019, 03:00 PM   #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
...BMW's new iDrive is a full step ahead and is an overall better package...
Virtually every review of the Model 3's UI has said the exact opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
...And in regards to performance...The stock Model 3...cannot achieve official Nurburgring times because they become speed limited due to overheating...
Not actually accurate. The Model 3 Performance running in "Track Mode" will dial back the power somewhat under hard use, but continues to perform at a high level:

From Road and Track:

"...After three or four laps at absolute tire-torturing full speed, the car begins to reduce power output. It's a balanced, gradual event. The motors and battery use cooling circuits that are independent but linked; as one component heats up, the system shifts cooling capacity where it's needed. It can even use the battery as a heat sink to shed excess thermal load from the motors.

This linked approach to thermal management means that, unlike previous Teslas, track driving won't lead to a total performance shutdown when one component's temperature spikes. Battery and motors heat up at the same rate; when the car starts approaching its thermal limits, it dials back power gradually, until the heat output can be managed by the car's cooling capability.

And you can keep lapping through it. The car's power output plateaus, the cooling system reaches a steady state. You're more than welcome to continue in this condition until you've drained the batteries. You'll miss some of the hard punch of acceleration coming out of the corners, but you end up driving it like a momentum car. It's still a ton of fun.
"

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ce-track-test/
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      08-15-2019, 03:19 PM   #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
...BMW's new iDrive is a full step ahead and is an overall better package...
Virtually every review of the Model 3's UI has said the exact opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
...And in regards to performance...The stock Model 3...cannot achieve official Nurburgring times because they become speed limited due to overheating...
Not actually accurate. The Model 3 Performance running in "Track Mode" will dial back the power somewhat under hard use, but continues to perform at a high level:

From Road and Track:

"...After three or four laps at absolute tire-torturing full speed, the car begins to reduce power output. It's a balanced, gradual event. The motors and battery use cooling circuits that are independent but linked; as one component heats up, the system shifts cooling capacity where it's needed. It can even use the battery as a heat sink to shed excess thermal load from the motors.

This linked approach to thermal management means that, unlike previous Teslas, track driving won't lead to a total performance shutdown when one component's temperature spikes. Battery and motors heat up at the same rate; when the car starts approaching its thermal limits, it dials back power gradually, until the heat output can be managed by the car's cooling capability.

And you can keep lapping through it. The car's power output plateaus, the cooling system reaches a steady state. You're more than welcome to continue in this condition until you've drained the batteries. You'll miss some of the hard punch of acceleration coming out of the corners, but you end up driving it like a momentum car. It's still a ton of fun.
"

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a22625274/tesla-model-3-performance-track-test/
The first point can be more subjective, I do find the UI to be very intuitive, but not every person may prefer a touchscreen as opposed to a system with knobs and buttons. Again, both systems are very good, but I'm sure everyone has their own preference.
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      08-15-2019, 05:24 PM   #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
The bmw product line has changed, but then again so has that of every other manufacturer as well. As we know, there are many factors to blame for this (emissions regulations, fuel economy regulations, passenger safety, pedestrian safety, shifting market preferences, etc). I think bmw has also tried too hard to please the masses. They've been a bit conservative, and as a result, have produced vehicles that aren't particularly polarizing, or offensive to anyone, but not particularly inspiring either. Despite these evolutions, I think that there are still some things to like about the modern bmw product line. The 2 series, especially the m2 has been compared to previous generations of bmw sports sedans and coupes. I think the mainstream car journalists have been particularly critical of bmw for some time now as well, and my feeling is that it goes beyond simply not enjoying the current crop of cars as much as the previous iterations.

For example I happened to be thumbing through the Aug edition of MT, and came across the articles where the g20 330i was compared to the g70, model 3, and separately the Alfa Romeo Giulia. Of course they were hard on the bimmer while lauding the other cars with all sorts of praise and compliments. As I looked into the stats though, I was surprised to see that the 330i gave the best skid pad reading of 0.95g, which is fantastic for a four door sedan. The closest competitor in their test was the g70 with 0.94. Their beloved Giulia was off by quite a bit with something like 0.91. The 330i finished 2nd to the model 3 in the figure 8 course as well. In fact it seemed like the main issue with the 330i was the stiff suspension. Never before have I seen a sedan achieve 0.95g of lateral grip and receive harsh criticism for being too stiff. Typically a stiff suspension is the price to pay for having a car that handles superbly, like the g20 with track package. I've driven some of the e90 generation, and those suspensions were rock hard and unyielding. Yet mags like MT raved about them, the same way they currently rave about the g70 and Giulia. I'm sorry but I have to call B.S. on that. Unfortunately though, car enthusiasts tend to be an impressionable group. Despite what the average enthusiast will tell you, they base their impressions of a given make and model, to a large extent, on reviews and others' opinions more than their own impressions from behind the wheel.
It is true that car mags vary in terms of dependability and even neutrality. As I said above, some are pure pay to play but there still are some trusty ones.

I agree that car enthusiasts are also not a homogenous group. Some are stuck in the old days, otherwise will take anything latest from their favorite brand and focus on specs, others go with the herd and yet others will drive the cars and make up their own minds. I like making up my own mind based on my personal driving experience:-)
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      08-15-2019, 05:27 PM   #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Virtually every review of the Model 3's UI has said the exact opposite.



Not actually accurate. The Model 3 Performance running in "Track Mode" will dial back the power somewhat under hard use, but continues to perform at a high level:

From Road and Track:

"...After three or four laps at absolute tire-torturing full speed, the car begins to reduce power output. It's a balanced, gradual event. The motors and battery use cooling circuits that are independent but linked; as one component heats up, the system shifts cooling capacity where it's needed. It can even use the battery as a heat sink to shed excess thermal load from the motors.

This linked approach to thermal management means that, unlike previous Teslas, track driving won't lead to a total performance shutdown when one component's temperature spikes. Battery and motors heat up at the same rate; when the car starts approaching its thermal limits, it dials back power gradually, until the heat output can be managed by the car's cooling capability.

And you can keep lapping through it. The car's power output plateaus, the cooling system reaches a steady state. You're more than welcome to continue in this condition until you've drained the batteries. You'll miss some of the hard punch of acceleration coming out of the corners, but you end up driving it like a momentum car. It's still a ton of fun.
"

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ce-track-test/
This test was for the pre-release version of track mode. Check the MT review for the last test with the release version.
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      08-15-2019, 05:27 PM   #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
The first point can be more subjective, I do find the UI to be very intuitive, but not every person may prefer a touchscreen as opposed to a system with knobs and buttons. Again, both systems are very good, but I'm sure everyone has their own preference.
You're absolutely correct - which is the better interface is a matter of personal preference.

The NAV maps in the Model 3 are tough to compete with, though, given the Google Maps imagery and the display size...
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      08-15-2019, 05:35 PM   #527
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The problem with test drives is that you generally only drive the car for about 10 minutes and even that is on the freeway or side streets. It's tough to get a really good feel of the car.

I had a 335i e90 for 10 years. I regrettably traded it in for a Tesla Model S. The Tesla is a great car, very fast, and amazing tech. But I miss the driving feel of the e90. I do think that people, me included, are won over by the instant electric acceleration. But once you get used to that, you start noticing the rest of the car. The Model S at least feels very heavy and numb. I test drove the Model 3 Performance and non-Performance. It feels much lighter and more nimble than the S. But somehow, it doesn't feel connected. And the interior, for me, is lacking. But this is after a 10 minute test drive.

If I had to choose now, I would buy the M340i. Or better yet, the M2. But it just depends what you do with the car. For commuting, the Tesla is hands down better.
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      08-15-2019, 05:55 PM   #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danf72 View Post
The problem with test drives is that you generally only drive the car for about 10 minutes and even that is on the freeway or side streets. It's tough to get a really good feel of the car.

I had a 335i e90 for 10 years. I regrettably traded it in for a Tesla Model S. The Tesla is a great car, very fast, and amazing tech. But I miss the driving feel of the e90. I do think that people, me included, are won over by the instant electric acceleration. But once you get used to that, you start noticing the rest of the car. The Model S at least feels very heavy and numb. I test drove the Model 3 Performance and non-Performance. It feels much lighter and more nimble than the S. But somehow, it doesn't feel connected. And the interior, for me, is lacking. But this is after a 10 minute test drive.

If I had to choose now, I would buy the M340i. Or better yet, the M2. But it just depends what you do with the car. For commuting, the Tesla is hands down better.
Agreed that the short test drives don't do full justice. I ended up doing 2 test drives for my 3P - first was focused on acceleration and the second on my insistence was testing grip and handling.

My Macan GTS test drive was limited because the dealer wasn't as flexible, but I could tell that the car was fairly soft and slowish despite what the car mags say.

Also the S is a very different beast than the 3 - The S handles great for a 5000lb car, but it is a 5000 lb car and designed as a GT.

I also came from a E90 335 (which was vastly superior to F30 in terms of ride handling balance - I've had a few multi-day F30 loaners). Couldn't be happier with my new car though).
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