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View Poll Results: Do you want the wall?
Yes, build that Wall 127 47.04%
No, it's a waste of money 119 44.07%
Indifferent/no opinion, doesn't matter 24 8.89%
Voters: 270. You may not vote on this poll

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      01-17-2019, 11:16 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The fiscal conservatives are in support of funding a physical barrier, just like Democrats were in the past, because they aren't buying the BS that it's a net negative on the economy. 💡
you don't speak for all fiscal conservatives.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/he...ers-2018-12-12

Quote:
Since 2007, the U.S. has spent $9.7 billion on border barrier construction, almost entirely at the Southwest border, the group says.

Customs and Border Protection first started erecting barriers in 1990, in San Diego. Between 2005 and 2011, the government started constructing several hundred miles of new barriers, before adopting a strategy that relies more on patrols and interdiction.

The White House itself estimates a full wall along the border would cost $25 billion, while other studies put the tab at around $40 billion.
we spend money on border barriers - ~$10b over the last 10 years or so. WH is estimating 25b in cost, other studies at 40, per the article. not including the maintenance and upkeep. so yea, 5b for now, and then more, and more, and more to build the rest of it and to keep it up. no thanks.
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      01-17-2019, 11:25 AM   #68
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https://www.texastribune.org/2017/12...roperty-fence/
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      01-17-2019, 11:49 AM   #69
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Waste of money. This comes from a real fiscal conservative, not the fake Neo-con that claims to be fiscally conservative because they are too cheap to pay taxes.
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      01-17-2019, 11:55 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F30dud View Post
As an immigrant, i don't care. Many can come with visa from europe and stay past their time.

The wall has another purpose...and that's politics..
Sure, let them use a visa to come in like most others who come here legally. Follow the visa procedures, first get a passport, fill out a visa application, write down your itinerary for the time in the USA, dates of the. Last 5 visits to the States, write down your work resume, supply any other information needed, go to an interview, pay for the visa, wait for approval. Then let them go overdue on their visa, that's a much better scenario then chasing after people with no docs.

Politics? What country do you hail from? Wonder if they have border security and checks and balances to let foreigners in or keep unwanted out. I bet they do.

You sound like a bright enough person so I'm guessing you come from a 1st world country. A scant few countries if any allow more immigrants into their borders to call it home then the US, no civilized lands have open border policy's. Please share with us your homelands immigration policy.
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      01-17-2019, 12:00 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
This is what makes term limits great though. I think the democrats are being the idiots here. Go negotiate some DACA bill, or make the $5 billion fund vague and allocate it to border security in general and not specifically to a wall.

Yes, Trump is being a dick, but lets be honest $5 billion isn't going to pay for much of a wall, and it's a very small percentage of the total budget. So why are the democrats wasting time and not just negotiating? Trump will be gone sooner or later, in the meanwhile give him what he wants so that you can get what you want. Giving him $5 billion for border security isn't going to really hurt anyone or suddenly put this country into a downward spiral. The democrats need to stop making this into a bigger deal than what it is.
They already had a bi-partisan plan that Trump was all ready to sign - until Rush and Ann Coulter said mean things about him because of it.


Last edited by hooligan_COLD; 01-17-2019 at 12:19 PM.
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      01-17-2019, 12:43 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
They already had a bi-partisan plan that Trump was all ready to sign - until Rush and Ann Coulter said mean things about him because of it.

I don't know about that plan, but either way Pelosi is refusing to take a meeting unless Trump drops the wall talk. That is just a waste of time and ridiculous.

That is like you walking away from buying a $500k house because of a couple dollar extra insurance that you don't agree with. Even though if you pay that couple dollars you could possibly get a brand new roof in return.

To shut down the government over less than a percent of the total budget is absolutely ridiculous.
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      01-17-2019, 01:24 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I don't know about that plan, but either way Pelosi is refusing to take a meeting unless Trump drops the wall talk. That is just a waste of time and ridiculous.

That is like you walking away from buying a $500k house because of a couple dollar extra insurance that you don't agree with. Even though if you pay that couple dollars you could possibly get a brand new roof in return.

To shut down the government over less than a percent of the total budget is absolutely ridiculous.
Because Congress already had an approved bipartisan plan, but Trump wanted his wall and exercised his veto power. And it was Trump who first walked out of initial meetings with Pelosi and refused additional meetings unless he got his wall.

On the matter of price, I think the better analogy is car-buying: Let's say you and the dealer rep came to an agreement on a price for a base model 3-series. But after checking with his manager, the manager came back and said, "I won't sell you this car unless you buy the premium package." Your response, of course, would be "I don't want the premium package. And I don't want to pay any more than $X for the car." And then the manager proceeds to say, "Why not? The cost of the premium package is only Y% more than the overall price f the car, which seems quite small. And plus, you're getting the premium package." To which, you would answer, "If Y% is 'quite small', why don't YOU take the hit and just give me the premium package for free?" To which the manager would answer, "I gotta feed my kids and pay for their college." And to which you would answer, "I gotta feed my kids and pay for their college too." And now you're at an impasse.

Last edited by schoy; 01-17-2019 at 01:30 PM.
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      01-17-2019, 01:27 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Because Congress already had an approved bipartisan plan, but Trump wanted his wall and exercised his veto power. And it was Trump who first walked out of initial meetings with Pelosi and refused additional meetings unless he got his wall.

On the matter of price, I think the better analogy is car-buying: Let's say you and the dealer rep came to an agreement on a price for a base model 3-series. But after checking with his manager, the manager came back and said, "I won't sell you this car unless you buy the premium package." Your response, of course, would be "I don't want the premium package. And I don't want to pay any more than $X for the car." And then the manager proceeds to say, "Why not? The cost of the premium package is only Y% more than the price you wanted, which seems quite small. And plus, you're getting the premium package." To which, you would answer, "If Y% is 'quite small', why don't YOU take the hit and just give me the premium package for free?" To which the manager would answer, "I gotta feed my kids and pay for their college." And to which you would answer, "I gotta feed my kids and pay for their college too." And now you're at an impasse.
And what if paying Y would also get you free gas for the term of your car, which is worth a ton more than the actual value of Y. Do you still not pay out of pride?

Let's also not forget by not paying Y and waiting, your wife can't get to her job because she doesn't have an option to buy another car.
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      01-17-2019, 01:52 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
And what if paying Y would also get you free gas for the term of your car, which is worth a ton more than the actual value of Y. Do you still not pay out of pride?

Let's also not forget by not paying Y and waiting, your wife can't get to her job because she doesn't have an option to buy another car.
I'm assuming you're saying that the benefits of the wall outweighs the cost of the wall. I don't think there's a single study that supports this that hasn't been found to be deeply flawed. For example, virtually every study that says that illegal immigrants cost taxpayers $X is flawed because they don't take into account the long-term benefits of future generations (children and grandchildren of immigrants shown to generally have better financial success than their non-immigrant peers and thus pay more taxes). Also, I don't believe there's been any definitive study on just much illegal immigration would be curbed with the wall; in fact, there's no reliable baseline metric on how many illegal immigrants cross the border at places where there are no fencing or walls, so there's no way of determining what % of illegal immigration would be curbed by the wall. So any conclusion that the benefits of the wall outweighs the cost of the wall over the course of decades is simply conjecture unsupported by any real data.

So based on that, I can just as easily say, "But what if paying Y, you get a mountain of additional long-term maintenance costs because the premium package has been shown to be highly unreliable." See, anyone can create unsubstantiated perceived costs just as much as one can create unsubstantiated perceived benefits.

Last edited by schoy; 01-17-2019 at 01:59 PM.
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      01-17-2019, 01:56 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
I'm assuming you're saying that the benefits of the wall outweighs the cost of the wall. I don't think there's a single study that supports this that hasn't been found to be deeply flawed. For example, virtually every study that says that illegal immigrants cost taxpayers $X is flawed because they don't taking into account the long-term benefits of future generations (children and grandchildren of immigrants shown to generally have better financial success than their non-immigrant peers and thus pay more taxes). Also, I don't believe there's been any definitive study on just much illegal immigration would be curbed with the wall; in fact, there's no reliable baseline metric on many illegal immigrants cross the border at places where there are no fencing or walls. So any conclusion that the benefits of the wall outweighs the cost of the wall over the course of decades is simply conjecture unsupported by any real data.
No not saying that at all, I am just saying that at a certain point logic needs to override pride.

If the democrats can use this to negotiate something that is really important to them like DACA, while only having to give up a minuscule amount of the budget, then what are they waiting for? Who cares if the wall works or not at this point, at the very least the $5b goes right back into our economy for supplies and labor.

I added the wife in there so that we don't forget that while everyone is being proud, we are losing a ton of money with the shutdown, and have good potential for this to really effect our economy.
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      01-17-2019, 02:19 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
They already had a bi-partisan plan that Trump was all ready to sign - until Rush and Ann Coulter said mean things about him because of it.
Sounds like a guy telling his girl "I was all ready to pull out, but..."
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      01-17-2019, 02:29 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
I'm assuming you're saying that the benefits of the wall outweighs the cost of the wall. I don't think there's a single study that supports this that hasn't been found to be deeply flawed. For example, virtually every study that says that illegal immigrants cost taxpayers $X is flawed because they don't take into account the long-term benefits of future generations (children and grandchildren of immigrants shown to generally have better financial success than their non-immigrant peers and thus pay more taxes). Also, I don't believe there's been any definitive study on just much illegal immigration would be curbed with the wall; in fact, there's no reliable baseline metric on how many illegal immigrants cross the border at places where there are no fencing or walls, so there's no way of determining what % of illegal immigration would be curbed by the wall. So any conclusion that the benefits of the wall outweighs the cost of the wall over the course of decades is simply conjecture unsupported by any real data.
I'm getting tired of constantly having to bring this up, but there is much more value in effective border security than only curbing illegal immigration. Widen your perspective. When you consider the benefits of curbing illegal immigration, curbing drug trafficking, and curbing human trafficking, the benefits far outweigh the cost of securing the border overall... Never mind the cost of just the physical barrier component of border security.
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      01-17-2019, 03:51 PM   #79
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1. If we build the walls to stop the illegal coming to U.S, it is not much help. The people will use all kinds of method to go through the border.
2. If we build the walls try to prevent the terrorist, I do not think they will go by Mexico/U.S border.
For the good side, the U.S may save a lot of money and people in the border, and created a lot of jobs and the contractor will make a lot lot lot of money. It is also blocked the non-U.S people to make the money. I think president Trump will win his 2nd term election, but what is going to happen to the next term president, he/she will think FXXX, do not waster the money, let us stop to build the wall.
You (The U.S) make the wall, we (non-U.S) destroy the wall.
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      01-20-2019, 12:28 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinHEMI View Post
No, waste of money. Most illegals fly in and stay.

I always believed the wall was a myth to play to the simplest people in his base.
Yeap, most of the illegal Immigration come from those that overstay their Visa.

Most of them are from the North, why they don't build a wall up there?

"My Wall" is a political campaign promise that doesn't serve any purpose for illegal immigration, drugs, etc.

He has been given money for the Border Security and he has done anything.

With both Congress and House controlled by the GOP for 2 yrs he could not get the votes. Now because it is a Dems House he is blaming them.
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      01-20-2019, 01:17 AM   #81
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Keep beating dead horses and chasing your tails
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      01-20-2019, 07:43 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Sounds like a guy telling his girl "I was all ready to pull out, but..."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Are you disputing that there was a deal on the table that Trump said he would sign, and then flip-flopped at the 11th hour after right-wing media folks took him to task over it?
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      01-20-2019, 09:22 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Sounds like a guy telling his girl "I was all ready to pull out, but..."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Are you disputing that there was a deal on the table that Trump said he would sign, and then flip-flopped at the 11th hour after right-wing media folks took him to task over it?
I'm not disputing that is the narrative put forth in the press... But that's all it was. Wishful reporting. They do a lot of that.
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      01-20-2019, 10:30 AM   #84
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OK....
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      01-20-2019, 10:45 AM   #85
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52% vs. 42%— Sounds about right for the country...Definately not enough disparity to get a wall built...There’s always the “Go Fund Me” page as a last resort...screw the wall,set up a page for our under appreciated government workers
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      01-20-2019, 11:59 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by CMAC's 'Vert View Post
52% vs. 42%— Sounds about right for the country...Definately not enough disparity to get a wall built...
My position is that the legally-binding poll... the Presidential election, was clear. The voting citizens of the US used the process prescribed by law to put the candidate in office that promised to build a border wall. The mandate is clearly on the side of building the wall.

To use your wording... some non-legally-binding poll... of who knows what people... is "definitely not enough" to overthrow the will expressed in the results of the Presidential election.
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      01-20-2019, 02:02 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The voting citizens of the US used the process prescribed by law to put the candidate in office that promised to build a border wall. The mandate is clearly on the side of building the wall.
Trump did get into office, and he did promise a wall, but I think it's a leap to say that is why everyone who voted for him did so. Many did, of course, but I think you are making connections that don't automatically exist. He also said he'd abolish Obamacare and replace it with something better. And put hundreds of billions into infrastructure. And put Hillary in jail. And much more - doesn't mean everyone who voted for him thought these things automatically should be done or will be, or that he is now in office they HAVE to be.

I think we tend to vote for the least of the evils. Who is actually 100% behind every single thing their candidate says?
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      01-20-2019, 02:12 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The voting citizens of the US used the process prescribed by law to put the candidate in office that promised to build a border wall. The mandate is clearly on the side of building the wall.
Trump did get into office, and he did promise a wall, but I think it's a leap to say that is why everyone who voted for him did so. Many did, of course, but I think you are making connections that don't automatically exist. He also said he'd abolish Obamacare and replace it with something better. And put hundreds of billions into infrastructure. And put Hillary in jail. And much more - doesn't mean everyone who voted for him thought these things automatically should be done or will be, or that he is now in office they HAVE to be.

I think we tend to vote for the least of the evils. Who is actually 100% behind every single thing their candidate says?
As I was saying in the other thread, Trump did not win mandate, not by a large margin.

More people voted for Hillary than trump. And a vast majority voted with Hillary, or against Hillary. I would say only 25% to 30% of the people voted for trump. Not a mandate.

Reagan had a mandate. George H Bush had a mandate. Bill Clinton had a mandate. Obama had a mandate. Trump does not have a mandate to do anything. His mandate was to not be Hillary.
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