The Chinese political thread

[Law]

Originally Posted by Z K

Yes, China has laws... but it is enforced rather unevenly. If you know the right people, you can get away with a lot of things. The alternative is also true in that if you anger the wrong people, you can be sure you won't get a favorable outcome in anything you do in the country.

No matter what China says, China's laws are not independent of political influence and its enforcement is uneven. The US judicial system is not nearly as bad.

There's also something called judicial independence that doesn't exist in that hellhole of a system.

In countries where judicial independence and constitutional law exist, such as the US or Canada, nobody is above the law.

In China, however, the right or wrong connections/status can either get you off the hook real fast, or land you in the purgatory rather quickly, and without due process in either case.

This [concepts of judicial independence and rule of law] is something Beijing just doesn't understand, that in the case of Ms. Meng, neither the governments of Canada nor the US can just say "oh yeah, nevermind, she's free to go".
Neither the Global Affairs Canada nor the US State Department has the authority or the right to intervene in a judicial matter within the justice system or to override the law.

On the flip side, rule of law & judicial independence also prevents the governments of Canada and the US to arrest Chinese nationals without due process during times of strained relations or as a retaliatory tactic.

Quite the contrary to the PRC, which has no judicial independence and can just use its "justice" system as an enforcement arm of the PRC's Foreign Affairs Ministry, arresting, charging, and/or releasing foreign nationals (and its own citizens) arbitrarily without due process.

[Real Dodger]

Zhao Ziyang: A reformer China's Communist Party wants to forget http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-46901248

[Ivan Ivanov]

Originally Posted by adc100

Neither Russia can project power globally. As pointed the chinese navy minus their subs would be wiped out in a day or two. Same holds true of the Russians. They like to tout their new "Toys" But these toys have never been battle tested and they don't have fighting experience.

If it came to blows. We won't get into a ground way..we don't need to. If somehow they took one of our carriers it would go badly for them.

And actually Israel could probably defeat China.

We have to assume neither side would launch ICBMs

Sofa commander? (as we say in Russia)

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov

Sofa commander? (as we say in Russia)

I wonder sometimes if after Putin shows off some new military hardware that is really junk, the local commander doesn't say afterwards "Эта игрушка просто дешёвка."


Reminds me of an old Russian joke someone told me when I was on a visit to Vladivostok.

A guy catches a golden fish, which says to him:

“Let me go and I’ll fulfill your every wish!”

The man answers:

“I want to become a Hero of the Soviet Union!”

He blinks… and finds himself in a field holding two grenades, facing five tanks...

[Ivan Ivanov]

Originally Posted by usshelena725

I wonder sometimes if after Putin shows off some new military hardware that is really junk, the local commander doesn't say afterwards "Эта игрушка просто дешёвка."

I adhere to the rules that if I don’t know something personally - I’d better not argue.
Thus, I am not aware of secret Russian developments, I think - no one here is aware of reliably. We do not know which is better - to tout or to remain silent, as well ))

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov

I adhere to the rules that if I don’t know something personally - I’d better not argue.
Thus, I am not aware of secret Russian developments, I think - no one here is aware of reliably. We do not know which is better - to tout or to remain silent, as well ))

LOL. I get it. The same as when you ask if Putin will again be the next President. You get the response: "Хрен знает кто будет следующий президент."

[glennQNYC]

Originally Posted by stylinexpat

A war with China would probably mean a war with North Korea and Russia.

Considering the unbelievable hate for President Trump; I wonder if the Democrats would join this alliance rather than join POTUS. 🤔

[Eriphill]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Considering the unbelievable hate for President Trump; I wonder if the Democrats would join this alliance rather than join POTUS. 🤔

I can see it. The all volunteer 5th Soy Battalion. Angry, scrawny, white liberal nerds coming together to fight the Orange Menace.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Considering the unbelievable hate for President Trump; I wonder if the Democrats would join this alliance rather than join POTUS. ��

There is bi partisan support for the trade war at this point. Democrats know there's issues with trade and despite not liking Trump, they know something needs to be done. Even Nancy Pelosi appauded the tariffs. It's one of the few things both sides agree on. But if Trump fails to get results, they'll destroy him.

I don't know about armed conflict but at least they support him at this point on China trade.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1ND1HU

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by adc100

Neither Russia can project power globally. As pointed the chinese navy minus their subs would be wiped out in a day or two. Same holds true of the Russians. They like to tout their new "Toys" But these toys have never been battle tested and they don't have fighting experience.

If it came to blows. We won't get into a ground way..we don't need to. If somehow they took one of our carriers it would go badly for them.

And actually Israel could probably defeat China.

We have to assume neither side would launch ICBMs

Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov

Sofa commander? (as we say in Russia)

Originally Posted by usshelena725

I wonder sometimes if after Putin shows off some new military hardware that is really junk, the local commander doesn't say afterwards "Эта игрушка просто дешёвка."


Reminds me of an old Russian joke someone told me when I was on a visit to Vladivostok.

A guy catches a golden fish, which says to him:

“Let me go and I’ll fulfill your every wish!”

The man answers:

“I want to become a Hero of the Soviet Union!”

He blinks… and finds himself in a field holding two grenades, facing five tanks...

Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov

I adhere to the rules that if I don’t know something personally - I’d better not argue.
Thus, I am not aware of secret Russian developments, I think - no one here is aware of reliably. We do not know which is better - to tout or to remain silent, as well ))

Originally Posted by usshelena725

LOL. I get it. The same as when you ask if Putin will again be the next President. You get the response: "Хрен знает кто будет следующий президент."

The research on and deployment of the supercavitating torpedo is a concern. It is a weapon with which to be seriously concerned about. Other than their subs, however, their fleet is no longer a match for ours.

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by Z K

Yes, China has laws... but it is enforced rather unevenly. If you know the right people, you can get away with a lot of things. The alternative is also true in that if you anger the wrong people, you can be sure you won't get a favorable outcome in anything you do in the country.

No matter what China says, China's laws are not independent of political influence and its enforcement is uneven. The US judicial system is not nearly as bad.

Our international laws and locals laws are not exactly enforced all that evenly and fairly. Each country has its positives and negatives.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42424666

Let’s not forget this..

https://m.jpost.com/American-Politic...-report-578615

[Real Dodger]

This guy makes a good point:

https://apple.news/A4IFuCqwsTaae51V_KRLY_A
If China's 'carrier-killer' missiles work, it's making one of the dumbest moves of the century
Business Insider

[Z K]

Originally Posted by stylinexpat

Our international laws and locals laws are not exactly enforced all that evenly and fairly. Each country has its positives and negatives.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42424666

Let’s not forget this..

https://m.jpost.com/American-Politic...-report-578615

I don't think it's nearly close to the kind of systemic problems that the Chinese system has. The majority of US judicial cases are treated justly. There is some politicization but that's only in certain cases.

In China, everything is politicized because the party controls everything. You can try the same case on two different days and get two different results depending on the political mood of the day. A devout party member may get a slap on the wrist for drunk driving, someone else may get a life prison sentence for the same violation... And this happens every day for everything from petty crimes to international episodes.

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by Z K

I don't think it's nearly close to the kind of systemic problems that the Chinese system has. The majority of US judicial cases are treated justly. There is some politicization but that's only in certain cases.

In China, everything is politicized because the party controls everything. You can try the same case on two different days and get two different results depending on the political mood of the day. A devout party member may get a slap on the wrist for drunk driving, someone else may get a life prison sentence for the same violation... And this happens every day for everything from petty crimes to international episodes.

This is very true but in the US "justly" depends on whom you ask and what kind of case it is

China is not perfect and has its flaws. The US is not perfect and has its flaws as well. Each country has its positives and negatives. Depending on which one values to be more important one will like more. I probably dome agree with half the stuff that China does and half the stuff that America does as well. One could say that China does some things better and some things worse. the same goes for the US.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by stylinexpat

This is very true but in the US "justly" depends on whom you ask and what kind of case it is

China is not perfect and has its flaws. The US is not perfect and has its flaws as well. Each country has its positives and negatives. Depending on which one values to be more important one will like more. I probably dome agree with half the stuff that China does and half the stuff that America does as well. One could say that China does some things better and some things worse. the same goes for the US.

There are many things I think China does better than the US and vice versa. But judicial independence is not one of them. US is much better in that respect.

[Real Dodger]

Originally Posted by stylinexpat

This is very true but in the US "justly" depends on whom you ask and what kind of case it is

China is not perfect and has its flaws. The US is not perfect and has its flaws as well. Each country has its positives and negatives. Depending on which one values to be more important one will like more. I probably dome agree with half the stuff that China does and half the stuff that America does as well. One could say that China does some things better and some things worse. the same goes for the US.

China does Orwellian Much better than the US.

[xQx]

While it's obviously preferable to live in a democratic society than a communist society; pointing fingers at the failing of Chinese government is a great way of keeping the attention off the flaws of your own.

There's a huge amount of anti-Chinese sentiment on Reddit at the moment because they're being sold to a chinese company, much of which reeks of western propaganda.

These articles calling China out for spying or forcing people to spy; and recent news about Huawei not being allowed to run 5g networks in five-eyes countries because of fear of Chinese spying might be legitimate; but it's pretty bloody hypocritical since five-eyes does an excellent job of intercepting all that traffic anyway, and Australia just passed laws forcing IT workers in this country to install backdoors for the Aussie-government and stay silent about it (even to their employer) - punishable by prison time handed out by a secret court.

While we're all more than welcome to piss and moan about the conditions these communist governments force on their citizens, it's worth thinking about which system of government is likely to prevail long term - one which makes populist decisions with four-year timeframes and has to justify every decision to the mob; or a government that can make investment unrestrained (or example, put military airports or new highways wherever they want without regard for citizens affected) with a strategic view of putting their country in the best position 100 years from now.

Perhaps we should be looking at the systemic issues with our own democracy to counter this threat; rather than lapping up populist "hey look at China's evil" articles and choosing future leaders based on identity politics.

[Real Dodger]

Originally Posted by xQx

While it's obviously preferable to live in a democratic society than a communist society; pointing fingers at the failing of Chinese government is a great way of keeping the attention off the flaws of your own.

There's a huge amount of anti-Chinese sentiment on Reddit at the moment because they're being sold to a chinese company, much of which reeks of western propaganda.

These articles calling China out for spying or forcing people to spy; and recent news about Huawei not being allowed to run 5g networks in five-eyes countries because of fear of Chinese spying might be legitimate; but it's pretty bloody hypocritical since five-eyes does an excellent job of intercepting all that traffic anyway, and Australia just passed laws forcing IT workers in this country to install backdoors for the Aussie-government and stay silent about it (even to their employer) - punishable by prison time handed out by a secret court.

While we're all more than welcome to piss and moan about the conditions these communist governments force on their citizens, it's worth thinking about which system of government is likely to prevail long term - one which makes populist decisions with four-year timeframes and has to justify every decision to the mob; or a government that can make investment unrestrained (or example, put military airports or new highways wherever they want without regard for citizens affected) with a strategic view of putting their country in the best position 100 years from now.

Perhaps we should be looking at the systemic issues with our own democracy to counter this threat; rather than lapping up populist "hey look at China's evil" articles and choosing future leaders based on identity politics.

China and their Orwellian wanna be government is a severe threat to democracy and freedom. Our shortcomings are nothing compared to theirs. But many of written off western democracy in the past. And they've always been wrong.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by xQx

While it's obviously preferable to live in a democratic society than a communist society; pointing fingers at the failing of Chinese government is a great way of keeping the attention off the flaws of your own.

There's a huge amount of anti-Chinese sentiment on Reddit at the moment because they're being sold to a chinese company, much of which reeks of western propaganda.

These articles calling China out for spying or forcing people to spy; and recent news about Huawei not being allowed to run 5g networks in five-eyes countries because of fear of Chinese spying might be legitimate; but it's pretty bloody hypocritical since five-eyes does an excellent job of intercepting all that traffic anyway, and Australia just passed laws forcing IT workers in this country to install backdoors for the Aussie-government and stay silent about it (even to their employer) - punishable by prison time handed out by a secret court.

While we're all more than welcome to piss and moan about the conditions these communist governments force on their citizens, it's worth thinking about which system of government is likely to prevail long term - one which makes populist decisions with four-year timeframes and has to justify every decision to the mob; or a government that can make investment unrestrained (or example, put military airports or new highways wherever they want without regard for citizens affected) with a strategic view of putting their country in the best position 100 years from now.

Perhaps we should be looking at the systemic issues with our own democracy to counter this threat; rather than lapping up populist "hey look at China's evil" articles and choosing future leaders based on identity politics.

I have been vocal about the good things that China has done, the fast growth advantages of their capitalist economy, convenience of paying for things without using cash etc.

But in China, I would be put in jail for being critical of the Chinese govt. We don't have that here. I don't need to join the Communist party in order to advance my professional career beyond a certain point. We also do not have concentration camps for "re-educating" ethnic minorities nor crackdowns for practicing religion. I know politicians are held accountable for their actions and they can be removed from office through voting. In China, top officials are untouchable and can get away with anything. They do not have to listen to anyone.

Yes, there are domestic issues without having to look at China but it's much better here when it comes to freedom and choice.

[Real Dodger]

Big Brother strikes again! I did not know the book publisher had been re-arrested.......

Sweden recalls China envoy over 'deal' on detained bookseller http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47238430

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by Real Dodger

Big Brother strikes again! I did not know the book publisher had been re-arrested.......

Sweden recalls China envoy over 'deal' on detained bookseller http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47238430

Damn. If you read that whole story in detail, it looks like it comes right from the pages of a Tom Clancy novel.

That is some serious shit.

All five members of the book store get abducted by Chinese Intelligence officials while outside of the country of China? Looks like one was abducted while on vacation in Thailand.

Then they are charged with various treason charges, all of which carry the death penalty?

Holy crap. The fact that China is 'collecting' these people outside of mainland China and violating international sovereignty is probably the biggest concern I have. Can you imagine walking through Boise, Idaho minding your own business when a truck pulls over and you are kidnapped and whisked away to China?

Screw that.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Run Silent

Damn. If you read that whole story in detail, it looks like it comes right from the pages of a Tom Clancy novel.

That is some serious shit.

All five members of the book store get abducted by Chinese Intelligence officials while outside of the country of China? Looks like one was abducted while on vacation in Thailand.

Then they are charged with various treason charges, all of which carry the death penalty?

Holy crap. The fact that China is 'collecting' these people outside of mainland China and violating international sovereignty is probably the biggest concern I have. Can you imagine walking through Boise, Idaho minding your own business when a truck pulls over and you are kidnapped and whisked away to China?

Screw that.

I wonder how they got the Swedish ambassador to China to agree to come meet Ms Gui? Seems very fishy... maybe they coerced the ambassador or used some kind of blackmail.

Here's her account of the meeting:
https://medium.com/@angela_62804/dam...t-1a09ba853018

Very weird meeting with two "business people" who were trying to "help".