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      10-26-2018, 07:55 AM   #1
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Canada passed a carbon tax that will give most Canadians more money

We are on the right track although a 'green' Canada has very little impact on the world as a whole.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ans-more-money
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      10-26-2018, 07:59 AM   #2
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Like anything, I do not believe the money will go where it should go and will not be efficient due to government bureaucracy.
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      10-26-2018, 08:19 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
We are on the right track although a 'green' Canada has very little impact on the world as a whole.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ans-more-money
So a couple of things. Canada already has a negative carbon footprint. We produce about 1.6% of global carbon but our forests actually eliminate more than our output.

The Carbon Tax is not nor will it ever be revenue neutral. Trudeau has promised to rebate money to offset the tax paid on fuel for your car and heating your home. However, that's not going to touch the increase in prices on every single item that we consume, food, clothing, you name it.

The cost for farmers to produce food is going to go up, then shipping it for processing will be more expensive, the processing and distribution will go up as will getting it to market and then the cost to the retailer. These costs will all be passed down to the consumer.

The Financial Post did an analysis of this a few weeks ago and they estimate the increased cost to the average family as being over $1000 a year.

https://business.financialpost.com/o...on-bill-canada

Do you trust Trudeau, the guy who promised modest deficits and a balanced budget next year (now projected to be $21 Billion and not balanced for 27 years now), and lets not forget his "and the budget will balance itself" remarks.

Do we need to pollute less? Absolutely! Do I think this carbon tax is going to do that, NOT A FAULKING CHANCE. But it will make life harder here in Canada.
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      10-26-2018, 08:21 AM   #4
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Fix your transportation system especially your airports where it cheaper to drive and fly thru/from America to get to any point in Canada then domestically before thinking you can save the world.

As for the above post Trudeau needs a slush fund for his international outfit closet and I guess he just wants to hands farming and manufacture to the USA.
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      10-26-2018, 08:25 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Canada passed a carbon tax that will give most Canadians more money
I feel this statement should be framed and shown to ever person who is considering the implications of a liberal versus fiscal conservative or libertarian political mindset.

The fact that you can say with a straight face that the government taking more money from you will result in you getting back more money is like saying that 2 + 2 can equal 7. Mind blown.



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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Do we need to pollute less? Absolutely! Do I think this carbon tax is going to do that, NOT A FAULKING CHANCE. But it will make life harder here in Canada.
Your statement is spot on.
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      10-26-2018, 08:38 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Fix your transportation system especially your airports where it cheaper to drive and fly thru/from America to get to any point in Canada then domestically before thinking you can save the world.

As for the above post Trudeau needs a slush fund for his international outfit closet and I guess he just wants to hands farming and manufacture to the USA.
I guess part of this found will be to cover his coming out of the closet party along with Macron's. These two are so overly sensitive that sometimes I question if thy are not just two really ugly women.
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      10-26-2018, 08:46 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
So a couple of things. Canada already has a negative carbon footprint. We produce about 1.6% of global carbon but our forests actually eliminate more than our output.

The Carbon Tax is not nor will it ever be revenue neutral. Trudeau has promised to rebate money to offset the tax paid on fuel for your car and heating your home. However, that's not going to touch the increase in prices on every single item that we consume, food, clothing, you name it.

The cost for farmers to produce food is going to go up, then shipping it for processing will be more expensive, the processing and distribution will go up as will getting it to market and then the cost to the retailer. These costs will all be passed down to the consumer.

The Financial Post did an analysis of this a few weeks ago and they estimate the increased cost to the average family as being over $1000 a year.

https://business.financialpost.com/o...on-bill-canada

Do you trust Trudeau, the guy who promised modest deficits and a balanced budget next year (now projected to be $21 Billion and not balanced for 27 years now), and lets not forget his "and the budget will balance itself" remarks.

Do we need to pollute less? Absolutely! Do I think this carbon tax is going to do that, NOT A FAULKING CHANCE. But it will make life harder here in Canada.

That article you posted is years old and an opinion by Kenneth Green. It keeps getting recycled.

How exactly is this making your life more difficult? Would it have been better if Ford maintained the cap and trade system? Nova Scotia has a cap and trade system and fuel prices are expected to rise by pennies over the next number of years.

The problem is Andrew Scheer is showing zero leadership on the environment. Instead of criticizing the current governments plan, what don't the conservatives come up with an alternative.
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      10-26-2018, 09:07 AM   #8
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Why do some Canadians have to attack the Supply of energy? When actually what they should be doing is attacking the Demand. Take away the demand for fossil fuels and we won't need as much supply. Credits for electric or hybrid cars, whatever, I don't have the answer. Give citizens an option to go to. If you don't give us an option, Canadians will continue to buy oil burning vehicles, including those tree hugging opponents of pipelines. Waive a protest sign for part of the day, walk around the corner and jump into your fuel burning vehicle. hypocrites
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      10-26-2018, 09:29 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by scotty91ss View Post
Why do some Canadians have to attack the Supply of energy? When actually what they should be doing is attacking the Demand. Take away the demand for fossil fuels and we won't need as much supply. Credits for electric or hybrid cars, whatever, I don't have the answer. Give citizens an option to go to. If you don't give us an option, Canadians will continue to buy oil burning vehicles, including those tree hugging opponents of pipelines. Waive a protest sign for part of the day, walk around the corner and jump into your fuel burning vehicle. hypocrites
Because, in general, the government doesn't like to 'encourage' or 'recommend', it likes to 'force' and 'demand'.
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      10-26-2018, 09:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty91ss View Post
Why do some Canadians have to attack the Supply of energy? When actually what they should be doing is attacking the Demand. Take away the demand for fossil fuels and we won't need as much supply. Credits for electric or hybrid cars, whatever, I don't have the answer. Give citizens an option to go to. If you don't give us an option, Canadians will continue to buy oil burning vehicles, including those tree hugging opponents of pipelines. Waive a protest sign for part of the day, walk around the corner and jump into your fuel burning vehicle. hypocrites
Isn't that what the carbon tax is addressing? For example, if the costs more to heat your home with oil then it does with a heat pump, the demand for oil will decrease.

Last edited by MrRoboto; 10-26-2018 at 09:51 AM..
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      10-26-2018, 09:57 AM   #11
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Hahahaha Trudeau, is that you?
Do you go by MrRoboto here? Never knew you drove a bimmer...

Interesting proposition. First, to call carbon "pollution".
Then it begins:

"We'll tax the country for emitting carbon in the atmosphere, and you reap the rewards!"

Prices of Products and services immediately go up, because whoever is paying the carbon tax will not swallow the cost alone.

And then you get a rebate on your annual taxes, that you think is free money, but will barely cover the added costs you've incurred with higher prices for goods. At best you tie.

This Robin Hood experiment, as always purported by the left, will end just like all Robin Hood experiments before it.

The illusion of "tax break for the middle class" is the same that created Uber: people lose their jobs and start driving for Uber, thinking they're getting a pay cheque.
Until such time comes for gas, maintenance, tickets, depreciation, and their time driving... then they realize they were getting paid less than minimum wage and quit.
Hence the high turnover.

And the turnover for this prime minister is due.
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      10-26-2018, 10:05 AM   #12
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The help line is 1-800-BIG-SCAM if you have any questions on receiving your carbon credit tax rebates from taxes we took from you in the first place to placate those who believe that taxing is the solution to behavior modification, improving technology, and all other ills of society.
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      10-26-2018, 10:25 AM   #13
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How about injecting a little fact into this debate.

The "carbon tax" only applies in jurisdictions where the provincial government has refused to address the issue. Quebec, Alberta, British Columbia, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Northwest Territories already have carbon pricing systems in place (generally cap and trade or a carbon tax) or are implementing them and are exempt from the federal carbon tax. PEI meets the exemption criteria but the Provincial government has asked the federal government to backstop their system with imposing the federal carbon tax on industrial emitters. Yukon and Nunavut have asked the federal government to apply the tax within their Territories and the revenue will be fully remitted back to Territorial governments.

Only Ontario, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick and Mantiba are having a tax imposed on them and it is solely because their provincial governments are refusing to act on GHG. Therefore it is only within those provinces that the federal tax and rebate applies. On this one, I actually believe that the federal government will rebate the revenue simply because of the politics around it. I'm not naive enough to suggest that a future CPC or Liberal government won't absorb the carbon tax into general revenue, but given the political capital at play, that's at least a decade away.

Let's also be clear about how we got here. The Government of Canada and every Territorial and Provincial government except Saskatchewan signed the Pan-Canadian Framework on Clean Growth and Climate Change upon which the federal carbon tax is based. Ontario, New Brunswick, and Manitoba have reneged on their word for no other purpose than shameless political pandering. They have no alternative plan for managing emissions. They have no approach reducing greenhouse gasses. They simply pander to whatever political base they think will get them a few votes. I have zero respect for the antics of Ford, Pallister, and Moe. Saskatchewan gets a pass on this because they at least have been consistent in their objections to carbon pricing. While I don't agree with their rationale, I appreciate that they are operating from a place of principle.
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      10-26-2018, 10:30 AM   #14
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trudeau. That uneducated trust fund baby never had a real job and Is completely clueless. Sellout to the globalist mentality. That puppet was put in his place by the same people who control macron and merkel. He and his handlers do not have the best interest of canadian citizens in mind and im emarrassed that the hippies and hipsters and the just plain stupid were so blind in voting for him.

The carbon tax pads the pockets of the elite. IT DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BENIFIT THE CITIZENRY AND WAS SET UP ONLY TO DRAIN THEIR POCKETS!!!

Shame on anybody who thinks that that child did anything good for Canada!

His lifes career consists of zero accomplishments aside from what resulted from him benifiting from having his socialist fathers name! He hasnt even been able to make one honest dollar off of his own talents and abilities! Canada is a carbon sink without the tax.

We do not need this tax as the industry is heading towards cleaner emmissions on its own. Us ditch diggers dont need our pockets picked to pay for it. Go hit up apple and big oil. They can afford twice what us humans pay and not bat an eye.
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      10-26-2018, 10:35 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
How about injecting a little fact into this debate.

The "carbon tax" only applies in jurisdictions where the provincial government has refused to address the issue. Quebec, Alberta, British Columbia, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Northwest Territories already have carbon pricing systems in place (generally cap and trade or a carbon tax) or are implementing them and are exempt from the federal carbon tax. PEI meets the exemption criteria but the Provincial government has asked the federal government to backstop their system with imposing the federal carbon tax on industrial emitters. Yukon and Nunavut have asked the federal government to apply the tax within their Territories and the revenue will be fully remitted back to Territorial governments.

Only Ontario, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick and Mantiba are having a tax imposed on them and it is solely because their provincial governments are refusing to act on GHG. Therefore it is only within those provinces that the federal tax and rebate applies. On this one, I actually believe that the federal government will rebate the revenue simply because of the politics around it. I'm not naive enough to suggest that a future CPC or Liberal government won't absorb the carbon tax into general revenue, but given the political capital at play, that's at least a decade away.

Let's also be clear about how we got here. The Government of Canada and every Territorial and Provincial government except Saskatchewan signed the Pan-Canadian Framework on Clean Growth and Climate Change upon which the federal carbon tax is based. Ontario, New Brunswick, and Manitoba have reneged on their word for no other purpose than shameless political pandering. They have no alternative plan for managing emissions. They have no approach reducing greenhouse gasses. They simply pander to whatever political base they think will get them a few votes. I have zero respect for the antics of Ford, Pallister, and Moe. Saskatchewan gets a pass on this because they at least have been consistent in their objections to carbon pricing. While I don't agree with their rationale, I appreciate that they are operating from a place of principle.
While you're "shaming" the prime ministers, what is your take on the benefits of carbon tax on emissions?

These prime ministers advocate that, like Zug said above, the carbon tax does no good to the environment.

When asked about it, Trudeau simply refused to answer. Repeatedly. Repeatedly. His environment minister will not have an answer as well, she's got less of a clue than he does.

So, what gives? Carbon tax is good. Why?

Once the federal government answers that question, all provinces will abide by it.
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      10-26-2018, 10:42 AM   #16
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A little humour to brighten our day, completely unrelated to this thread (maybe)



Have a great day guys and girls
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      10-26-2018, 10:46 AM   #17
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Maybe she'll have some answers :

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      10-26-2018, 11:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
While you're "shaming" the prime ministers, what is your take on the benefits of carbon tax on emissions?

These prime ministers advocate that, like Zug said above, the carbon tax does no good to the environment.

When asked about it, Trudeau simply refused to answer. Repeatedly. Repeatedly. His environment minister will not have an answer as well, she's got less of a clue than he does.

So, what gives? Carbon tax is good. Why?

Once the federal government answers that question, all provinces will abide by it.
I never read, respond, or consider anything Zugs has to say so I wouldn't have even read the post.

However, the vast majority of credible sources I read support a carbon tax and I defer to what are, to me, rational arguments from people who know a lot more than I do on the subject:

In short, the World Bank says it as neatly as anything I've read:
A price on carbon helps shift the burden for the damage back to those who are responsible for it, and who can reduce it. Instead of dictating who should reduce emissions where and how, a carbon price gives an economic signal and polluters decide for themselves whether to discontinue their polluting activity, reduce emissions, or continue polluting and pay for it. In this way, the overall environmental goal is achieved in the most flexible and least-cost way to society. The carbon price also stimulates clean technology and market innovation, fuelling new, low-carbon drivers of economic growth.
I've seen similar arguments made in the Guardian, the LA Times, by the Brookings Institute, World Business Council For Sustainable Development, and by private sector and industrial leaders who internally shadow price carbon like Unilever.

It intuitively makes sense. If it become more economically viable to innovate within industrial production to produce less environmental damage (and I would be taxing habitat destruction as well if I were in charge) then production methods change. Yes, consumers pay more but if the tax incentivizes industry and the rebate makes consumers whole, the net benefit in terms of environmental measures makes the approach (irrespective of a carbon tax or a cap and trade) worthwhile. The only other idea that the Doug Fords. Brian Pallisters, Jason Kenneys, and Andrew Scheers have is to increade penalties for polluters. That's been proven, time and time again, not to work. My issue is that none of them have a practical idea or alternative ... they're just saying no because they think that will win them an election not because they have a principled objection with an alternative approach in mind. Not one of them has said that they don't believe in climate change. They all say that they believe action on GHG emissions is necessary. But, they don't have a single idea worth the weight of the napkin they scrawled it on.

Remember, it was the Stephen Harper government that signed onto the Paris Accord ... all Justin Trudeau is doing is implementing the most reasonable approach to get us to the targets that our previous CPC government agreed to. It's why Mark Cameron (former policy director in the Prime Minister's Office under Stephen Harper) has fully endorsed the federal carbon tax.
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      10-26-2018, 11:33 AM   #19
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The concept, on the face of it, is plausible.
Where I get concerned is that the rebate is not based on carbon footprint, or what I pay; but will be based on income level.

With a family of four and 2 incomes, I shouldn’t be penalized for raising a family, driving kids, heating my home etc. If people are getting more in rebates, and some less, it’s just wealth redistribution, and I’m against that.

As Canadians we seem to absorb a huge moral issue when contribute less than 2% of global GHG emissions. Considering it’s the seconds largest country in the world, any transportation is going to be energy consumed. Also a Northern climate has its burden to be heated and illuminated for many months of the year.

While we ship huge amounts of coal overseas to be burned from BC, and coal is such a contributor to global GHG’s, maybe we should tax that rather than the general population..

My $.02 worth
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      10-26-2018, 11:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zugzwang View Post
trudeau. That uneducated trust fund baby never had a real job and Is completely clueless. Sellout to the globalist mentality. That puppet was put in his place by the same people who control macron and merkel. He and his handlers do not have the best interest of canadian citizens in mind and im emarrassed that the hippies and hipsters and the just plain stupid were so blind in voting for him.

The carbon tax pads the pockets of the elite. IT DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BENIFIT THE CITIZENRY AND WAS SET UP ONLY TO DRAIN THEIR POCKETS!!!

Shame on anybody who thinks that that child did anything good for Canada!

His lifes career consists of zero accomplishments aside from what resulted from him benifiting from having his socialist fathers name! He hasnt even been able to make one honest dollar off of his own talents and abilities! Canada is a carbon sink without the tax.

We do not need this tax as the industry is heading towards cleaner emmissions on its own. Us ditch diggers dont need our pockets picked to pay for it. Go hit up apple and big oil. They can afford twice what us humans pay and not bat an eye.
You're from BC so this doesn't affect you.
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      10-26-2018, 12:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
The concept, on the face of it, is plausible.
Where I get concerned is that the rebate is not based on carbon footprint, or what I pay; but will be based on income level.

With a family of four and 2 incomes, I shouldnít be penalized for raising a family, driving kids, heating my home etc. If people are getting more in rebates, and some less, itís just wealth redistribution, and Iím against that.

As Canadians we seem to absorb a huge moral issue when contribute less than 2% of global GHG emissions. Considering itís the seconds largest country in the world, any transportation is going to be energy consumed. Also a Northern climate has its burden to be heated and illuminated for many months of the year.

While we ship huge amounts of coal overseas to be burned from BC, and coal is such a contributor to global GHGís, maybe we should tax that rather than the general population..

My $.02 worth
I agree with both your points. I haven't considered the mechanism of the rebate because I live in BC and we're not going to be subject to the tax but it's a fair point. Not sure I know what the best or fairest mechanism would be but I get the point.

As for the coal thing ... it's kind of outrageous because most of that is actually US coal that ports in Oregon, Washington, and California refuse to ship. We should simply get out of the business of assisting the US in environmental destruction of unparalleled proportion. Anyone who complains about what the tar sands look like should be paying attention to mountaintop removal coal mining .,.. gross practice.
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      10-26-2018, 12:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
That article you posted is years old and an opinion by Kenneth Green. It keeps getting recycled.

How exactly is this making your life more difficult? Would it have been better if Ford maintained the cap and trade system? Nova Scotia has a cap and trade system and fuel prices are expected to rise by pennies over the next number of years.

The problem is Andrew Scheer is showing zero leadership on the environment. Instead of criticizing the current governments plan, what don't the conservatives come up with an alternative.
The article was published June 27th, 2018 and it the way I read it seems to indicate that it is based on Stats Canada data and analysis from a number of reputable universities. If you seriously believe Trudeau you are very naive, and if you believe that taxing carbon is going to make life cheaper than you are even more naive. Only the liberals believe that this will make life cheaper, I've yet to hear one explanation that this will save me money or actually green the planet.
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