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      10-26-2018, 12:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
As Canadians we seem to absorb a huge moral issue when contribute less than 2% of global GHG emissions. Considering itís the seconds largest country in the world, any transportation is going to be energy consumed. Also a Northern climate has its burden to be heated and illuminated for many months of the year.
Per the Paris Accords:

Total reduction in carbon emissions to limit global temp growth to only 1.5c is 15 gigatons annually. Or 15,000,000,000 tons. Total emissions generated by Canada is 563,000,000 tons. So if we just shut off all the electricity, heat, infrastructure, gas, transportation, and any other modern convenience in Canada, it still wouldn't matter. For the Canadian government to tax its citizens with absolutely zero gain for anyone is absurd.

Even if every single country on earth reverted back to pre-industrial revolution emissions levels, the censuses among climate scientists and agreed upon by the Paris Accords states that it would still take as long as 1,000 years after a complete halt of greenhouse gas emissions for environmental measures like sea level and ocean surface temperature to return to pre-industrial levels.

It is all a total scam.
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      10-26-2018, 12:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Maybe she'll have some answers :

Hence the nickname "Climate Barbie".
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      10-26-2018, 12:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by OnerDriver View Post
Maybe she'll have some answers :

Hence the nickname "Climate Barbie".
I LOLed when I saw a video titled that earlier today
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      10-26-2018, 12:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
I never read, respond, or consider anything Zugs has to say so I wouldn't have even read the post.

However, the vast majority of credible sources I read support a carbon tax and I defer to what are, to me, rational arguments from people who know a lot more than I do on the subject:

In short, the World Bank says it as neatly as anything I've read:
A price on carbon helps shift the burden for the damage back to those who are responsible for it, and who can reduce it. Instead of dictating who should reduce emissions where and how, a carbon price gives an economic signal and polluters decide for themselves whether to discontinue their polluting activity, reduce emissions, or continue polluting and pay for it. In this way, the overall environmental goal is achieved in the most flexible and least-cost way to society. The carbon price also stimulates clean technology and market innovation, fuelling new, low-carbon drivers of economic growth.
I've seen similar arguments made in the Guardian, the LA Times, by the Brookings Institute, World Business Council For Sustainable Development, and by private sector and industrial leaders who internally shadow price carbon like Unilever.

It intuitively makes sense. If it become more economically viable to innovate within industrial production to produce less environmental damage (and I would be taxing habitat destruction as well if I were in charge) then production methods change. Yes, consumers pay more but if the tax incentivizes industry and the rebate makes consumers whole, the net benefit in terms of environmental measures makes the approach (irrespective of a carbon tax or a cap and trade) worthwhile. The only other idea that the Doug Fords. Brian Pallisters, Jason Kenneys, and Andrew Scheers have is to increade penalties for polluters. That's been proven, time and time again, not to work. My issue is that none of them have a practical idea or alternative ... they're just saying no because they think that will win them an election not because they have a principled objection with an alternative approach in mind. Not one of them has said that they don't believe in climate change. They all say that they believe action on GHG emissions is necessary. But, they don't have a single idea worth the weight of the napkin they scrawled it on.

Remember, it was the Stephen Harper government that signed onto the Paris Accord ... all Justin Trudeau is doing is implementing the most reasonable approach to get us to the targets that our previous CPC government agreed to. It's why Mark Cameron (former policy director in the Prime Minister's Office under Stephen Harper) has fully endorsed the federal carbon tax.
I'm sorry, I don't trust the Liberal Government and especially Justin Trudeau to take money and then give it all back. Imposing a tax on carbon which is really a penalty for using it may be a deterrent. Although, we live in one of the coldest countries in the world, I'm not sure how I can cut back on home heating in any significant way, and I don't live in a city as most Canadians don't so access to usable public transit isn't an option, so my point is this is a carbon penally.

Trudeau promised when he got elected that he would run a modest deficit for the first two years and then balance the budget in 2019. The deficit is through the roof, next year it's projected to be $21 Billion, and now won't be balanced for 27 years. The budget will balance itself under the liberal fiscal plan was his statement. The only promise he kept was to legalize marijuana and that has been completely cocked up. I guess he hopes everyone will get high and not notice the cost of every damn thing going up because of this carbon penalty.
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      10-26-2018, 12:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Canada mines very little met coal, nearly all steam. Steam coal markets rely on very small margins (couple cents per ton). You do what you are suggesting, and every single Canadian coal company will be out of business the week following, along with all the people they employ.
There's no need for Canadian coal, but more importantly I dislike the idea of BC ports being used to bypass environmental regulation in US western coastal states. We shouldn't be exporting your coal because the industry doesn't like the regulation in Oregon, Washington and California.

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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Unparalleled proportion, eh? Bit of hyperbole there perhaps? lol.

Also, there is no such thing as mountain top removal coal mining in the United States that would leave the mountain in a poorer state than before, get your facts straight. That hasn't existed in over 40 years.

100% of any mining endeavor in the USA is required to generate an ARO liability on the books with means to pay for it before any mining takes place. This liability, usually the largest on the mining company's' books, most cover the costs to completely and totally return the area that was mined back to or better than its original form. Refer to the Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act of 1977.
I'll acknowledge the hyperbole, but not the facts. While the number of MTR mines is clearly decreasing, and the Obama administration reduced the number of permits being issues, it is hardly eliminated. Coal River was just approved in 2016. And your claim that "... that would leave the mountain in a poorer state than before" is laughable. Google Earth is your friend, but even if there is a mining company out there doing terrain remediation ... it doesn't remotely repair the significant ecological and environmental damage done by MTR.
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      10-26-2018, 12:55 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
I'm sorry, I don't trust the Liberal Government and especially Justin Trudeau to take money and then give it all back. Imposing a tax on carbon which is really a penalty for using it may be a deterrent. Although, we live in one of the coldest countries in the world, I'm not sure how I can cut back on home heating in any significant way, and I don't live in a city as most Canadians don't so access to usable public transit isn't an option, so my point is this is a carbon penally.

Trudeau promised when he got elected that he would run a modest deficit for the first two years and then balance the budget in 2019. The deficit is through the roof, next year it's projected to be $21 Billion, and now won't be balanced for 27 years. The budget will balance itself under the liberal fiscal plan was his statement. The only promise he kept was to legalize marijuana and that has been completely cocked up. I guess he hopes everyone will get high and not notice the cost of every damn thing going up because of this carbon penalty.
Just curious - what are you paying for utilities (heat and electricity) during the winter months in Ontario? I live in Tennessee, but way up in the mountains where the temps drop below -20c on many nights during the winter with highs rarely reaching -5c during the sunniest of days.

My normal winter utility bill for all electricity and heat runs about $80-$90 USD per month.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
I'll acknowledge the hyperbole, but not the facts. While the number of MTR mines is clearly decreasing, and the Obama administration reduced the number of permits being issues, it is hardly eliminated. Coal River was just approved in 2016. And your claim that "... that would leave the mountain in a poorer state than before" is laughable. Google Earth is your friend, but even if there is a mining company out there doing terrain remediation ... it doesn't remotely repair the significant ecological and environmental damage done by MTR.
It's not mountain top removal if it looks the same or better when done.

I work in corporate management for one of the largest coal mining companies in the United States, I can assure you that my access to records and sources is better than yours. But you keep thinking what you think. Enjoy your new taxes.
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      10-26-2018, 01:07 PM   #29
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[quote=usshelena725;23905064]Canada mines very little met coal, nearly all steam. Steam coal markets rely on very small margins (couple cents per ton). You do what you are suggesting, and every single Canadian coal company will be out of business the week following, along with all the people they employ.


Iím being ironical, Iím really not taking the moral superiority stand point of ďdoing our shareĒ with a tiny contribution of GHGís.
Canada is resource rich and unfortunately we are inundated with foreign influence to curb resource exports and increase costs to establish foreign idealistic guidelines. It isnít at all surprising that technology we are told to use is foreign made from countries that donít have the energy infrastructure, but import oil from Russia.

Unfortunately, for the proponents of GHG reductions, this will inevitably hurt the planets most vulnerable people as their requirements for energy to bring them out of abject poverty into some sustainable existence.
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      10-26-2018, 01:09 PM   #30
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[quote=usshelena725;23905253]Just curious - what are you paying for utilities (heat and electricity) during the winter months in Ontario? I live in Tennessee, but way up in the mountains where the temps drop below -20c on many nights during the winter with highs rarely reaching -5c during the sunniest of days.

My normal winter utility bill for all electricity and heat runs about $80-$90 USD per month.

I heat with Natural Gas, last year my bill for the whole year was about $2000, and my hydro bill was about $160 per month. Our winters here are mild compared to much of Canada, we get down below freezing for most of December-March.
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      10-26-2018, 01:11 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post

It's not mountain top removal if it looks the same or better when done.
However it looks afterwards, it still causes massive ecological and environmental damage as a process. Are you actually claiming it doesn't?


Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
I work in corporate management for one of the largest coal mining companies in the United States, I can assure you that my access to records and sources is better than yours. But you keep thinking what you think. Enjoy your new taxes.
Fair enough ... you know something about the subject and more than I do. Kind of heightens the disingenuousness of glossing over the environmental and ecological impacts of MTR, whether terrain remediation takes place or not.

As for me ... read again. I'm not subject to this tax. The BC government acted on carbon pricing more than a decade ago.
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      10-26-2018, 01:13 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
The article was published June 27th, 2018 and it the way I read it seems to indicate that it is based on Stats Canada data and analysis from a number of reputable universities. If you seriously believe Trudeau you are very naive, and if you believe that taxing carbon is going to make life cheaper than you are even more naive. Only the liberals believe that this will make life cheaper, I've yet to hear one explanation that this will save me money or actually green the planet.
The numbers quoted in the article are from a report from April 2017 by Dr Jennifer Winter and completely taken out of context.

https://www.policyschool.ca/effect-c...an-households/
https://www.policyschool.ca/calculat...s-challenging/

The math is very simple, spend less on carbon taxed products then your rebate check is for and you're ahead.

Last edited by MrRoboto; 10-26-2018 at 01:27 PM.
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      10-26-2018, 01:28 PM   #33
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[quote=Grumpy Old Man;23905314]
Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Just curious - what are you paying for utilities (heat and electricity) during the winter months in Ontario? I live in Tennessee, but way up in the mountains where the temps drop below -20c on many nights during the winter with highs rarely reaching -5c during the sunniest of days.

My normal winter utility bill for all electricity and heat runs about $80-$90 USD per month.

I heat with Natural Gas, last year my bill for the whole year was about $2000, and my hydro bill was about $160 per month. Our winters here are mild compared to much of Canada, we get down below freezing for most of December-March.

Whew - nearly double. Hence my anti-affinity to any more taxes. Don't want my bills to turn into yours.

My heat is natural gas as well, it is a separate bill from my electricity, but I combined them for simplicity. Breakdown per year below for me. We are below freezing at night from OCT-APR and below freezing during the day from late DEC to mid MAR.

Annual rates:

Gas Heat: $290 for 2017
Electricity: $660 for 2017
Total = $950

Hydro: $720 for 2017
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      10-26-2018, 01:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
However it looks afterwards, it still causes massive ecological and environmental damage as a process. Are you actually claiming it doesn't?

Fair enough ... you know something about the subject and more than I do. Kind of heightens the disingenuousness of glossing over the environmental and ecological impacts of MTR, whether terrain remediation takes place or not.

Not at all. Do you know how many millions of dollars we are fined if we end up polluting even a single drop of water? If we accidentally kill or disrupt a habitat of any endangered animal? The overall enviro impact of surface mining is very minimal these days.
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      10-26-2018, 01:40 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post


Whew - nearly double. Hence my anti-affinity to any more taxes. Don't want my bills to turn into yours.

My heat is natural gas as well, it is a separate bill from my electricity, but I combined them for simplicity. Breakdown per year below for me. We are below freezing at night from OCT-APR and below freezing during the day from late DEC to mid MAR.

Annual rates:

Gas Heat: $290 for 2017
Electricity: $660 for 2017
Total = $950

Hydro: $720 for 2017
You can't draw national conclusions from regional variables:
Heating/Cooling/Hot Water/Cold Water: $550 (CAD) for 2017
Electricity: $530 (CAD) for 2017
Total: $1080 (CAD) or $830 (USD)
In other words, having public sector utilities generating a dividend for their sole shareholders (provincial and municipal government) provides better value than whatever regime you're operating under.

Of course, my statement above is nonsensical because it doesn't include any of the multitude of variables that would need to be considered in a true comparison but no more so than your silly little bromide about "... don't want my bills to turn into yours."
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      10-26-2018, 01:41 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
The numbers quoted in the article are from a report from April 2017 by Dr Jennifer Winter and completely taken out of context.

https://www.policyschool.ca/effect-c...an-households/
https://www.policyschool.ca/calculat...s-challenging/

The math is very simple, spend less on carbon taxed products then your rebate check is for and you're ahead.
Are they going to rebate me the increase to the cost of everything other than fuel to heat my home or fuel for my car? I don't trust that the rebates will be anywhere close to coving the increases we are going to see on everything. The rebates aren't going to go to any manufacturing, distributing, farming, transportation etc. So their costs are mostly fixed and will go up, and they won't be absorbing that increase, it will get passed along to the consumer.

It would be great if you were right but I'll stand by my mistrust of government taxation and in particular Trudeau and his litany of broken promises, out right lies and fiscal ineptitude.
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      10-26-2018, 01:42 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Per the Paris Accords:

Total reduction in carbon emissions to limit global temp growth to only 1.5c is 15 gigatons annually. Or 15,000,000,000 tons. Total emissions generated by Canada is 563,000,000 tons. So if we just shut off all the electricity, heat, infrastructure, gas, transportation, and any other modern convenience in Canada, it still wouldn't matter. For the Canadian government to tax its citizens with absolutely zero gain for anyone is absurd.

Even if every single country on earth reverted back to pre-industrial revolution emissions levels, the censuses among climate scientists and agreed upon by the Paris Accords states that it would still take as long as 1,000 years after a complete halt of greenhouse gas emissions for environmental measures like sea level and ocean surface temperature to return to pre-industrial levels.

It is all a total scam.
Quite possibly the biggest scam perpetrated on the population in the history of the world. I'm not being hyperbolic, either.
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      10-26-2018, 01:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
The concept, on the face of it, is plausible.
Where I get concerned is that the rebate is not based on carbon footprint, or what I pay; but will be based on income level.

With a family of four and 2 incomes, I shouldnít be penalized for raising a family, driving kids, heating my home etc. If people are getting more in rebates, and some less, itís just wealth redistribution, and Iím against that.

As Canadians we seem to absorb a huge moral issue when contribute less than 2% of global GHG emissions. Considering itís the seconds largest country in the world, any transportation is going to be energy consumed. Also a Northern climate has its burden to be heated and illuminated for many months of the year.

While we ship huge amounts of coal overseas to be burned from BC, and coal is such a contributor to global GHGís, maybe we should tax that rather than the general population..

My $.02 worth

Good points.
Liberals: I am going to put in a Carbon Tax to change your behavior to reduce fuel consumption, but then I am going to give some people rebates back so that you can vote me in next year so I can screw with this system even more.
If you are taking tax, DON't give it back. It will cost more money to administer the system than what it makes. Isn't there tax in fuel already at the pump? Well, raise that tax more. See what happens, but at least take the profits from the tax and invest in alternative energies, don't use it to buy votes.
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      10-26-2018, 01:46 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
You can't draw national conclusions from regional variables:
Heating/Cooling/Hot Water/Cold Water: $550 (CAD) for 2017
Electricity: $530 (CAD) for 2017
Total: $1080 (CAD) or $830 (USD)
In other words, having public sector utilities generating a dividend for their sole shareholders (provincial and municipal government) provides better value than whatever regime you're operating under.

Of course, my statement above is nonsensical because it doesn't include any of the multitude of variables that would need to be considered in a true comparison but no more so than your silly little bromide about "... don't want my bills to turn into yours."
From your profile you live in Vancouver which rarely sees snow or below freezing temps.

I live in Niagara on the Lake, my home is only 1200 sq ft, older but pretty well insulated. My gas bill for 2017 was about $2000, hydro about $160/ month

So $3900 CAD or $2980 USD. Diesel has gone from 0.94 litre in 2016 to $1.25 litre in 2018.

Our hydro is through the roof because of the Liberals Green Energy act, and this Carbon Tax, sorry Pollution fee is going to make things more expensive.
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      10-26-2018, 01:54 PM   #40
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It would be great if you were right but I'll stand by my mistrust of government taxation and in particular Trudeau and his litany of broken promises, out right lies and fiscal ineptitude.
I'm going to single this comment out because it's misleading. There is a difference between fiscal and economic policy and no single government was worse on fiscal policy than the CPC government from 2006 to 2008. The Chretien/Martin Liberals left a fiscal house in order with a tax regime that was generally fair with little catering to special interests and wedge political advantage. In two years, the CPC irreparably damaged the fiscal position of the federal government with significant tax code changes that were regressive and targeted to special interest voters with no underlying fiscal or economic rationale. What everyone forgets is that they inherited a surplus and drove it into monthly deficit program spending before the 2008 economic crisis. It was fiscal mismanagement at its worst. Rivals the Glen Clark NDP government we had in BC in the late 90's and that's almost impossible to believe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not thrilled with the deficits the Liberals are currently running, but they are nowhere near as damaging from a fiscal policy perspective as what the Harper government did in its first two years in power.
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      10-26-2018, 02:01 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
From your profile you live in Vancouver which rarely sees snow or below freezing temps.

I live in Niagara on the Lake, my home is only 1200 sq ft, older but pretty well insulated. My gas bill for 2017 was about $2000, hydro about $160/ month

So $3900 CAD or $2980 USD. Diesel has gone from 0.94 litre in 2016 to $1.25 litre in 2018.

Our hydro is through the roof because of the Liberals Green Energy act, and this Carbon Tax, sorry Pollution fee is going to make things more expensive.
You need to read what I wrote again ... i said you can't compare the merits and/or efficiency of various jurisdictions by looking at rates.
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      10-26-2018, 02:03 PM   #42
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Not at all. Do you know how many millions of dollars we are fined if we end up polluting even a single drop of water? If we accidentally kill or disrupt a habitat of any endangered animal? The overall enviro impact of surface mining is very minimal these days.
Iím not in the mining business but I am in a related (downstream) industry. I have toured surface, deep wall and narrow seam coal mines, and talked directly to miners and owners. I agree with usshelena on his points throughout this thread.

I have also talked to the people who live in Appalachian coal mining country where so-called MTM was practiced. I havenít seen any of it for years, although I do occasionally see city folk who have never been there (I ask) protesting it. The mountain people appreciate some level ground - it gives them buildable sites for golf, shopping and industry/jobs. I have never heard anyone from the mining areas, even non-miners, complain about the look or environmental impact of any form of mining.

Mining practices are high tech and high art; mining regulations are incredibly strict especially as it relates to water during mining operations and restoration after mining is complete (really as one area completes and an adjacent opens; it is kind of a continuous process for deep wall).

Low energy prices are the foundation of a strong economy. Energy is an input into all products, a high input into many, and necessary for shipping and delivery as well as mobility/transportation. When politicians increase energy prices they can expect economic consequences. They may save emissions, but they will cost industry (relocation) and job losses.

From the article, at most 90% of the tax taken will be given back. Others have already noted that it wonít go directly or even proportionately to those who pay the most because of the tax (often poor who can not afford substitutes). Doesnít seem like a very sensible nor fair system to me, but then Iím not Canadian.
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      10-26-2018, 02:06 PM   #43
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I'm going to single this comment out because it's misleading. There is a difference between fiscal and economic policy and no single government was worse on fiscal policy than the CPC government from 2006 to 2008. The Chretien/Martin Liberals left a fiscal house in order with a tax regime that was generally fair with little catering to special interests and wedge political advantage. In two years, the CPC irreparably damaged the fiscal position of the federal government with significant tax code changes that were regressive and targeted to special interest voters with no underlying fiscal or economic rationale. What everyone forgets is that they inherited a surplus and drove it into monthly deficit program spending before the 2008 economic crisis. It was fiscal mismanagement at its worst. Rivals the Glen Clark NDP government we had in BC in the late 90's and that's almost impossible to believe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not thrilled with the deficits the Liberals are currently running, but they are nowhere near as damaging from a fiscal policy perspective as what the Harper government did in its first two years in power.
2008 was the global financial crisis where Canada faired better than any other G7 country. Also, the liberals managed to rape the EI fund of something like $50+ Billion dollars to get their house in order, It wasn't being fiscally or economically smart.
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      10-26-2018, 02:08 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
You need to read what I wrote again ... i said you can't compare the merits and/or efficiency of various jurisdictions by looking at rates.
I agree with what you wrote, our friend in the Tennessee mountains seems like he's in a region similar to Ontario as opposed to Vancouver. My point is also that the folks in much of BC live in a climate where they can easily rely less on fossil fuels than much of the rest of Canada.
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