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      12-20-2018, 01:17 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Dude, facts and reality checks like this don't compute with Trump and a Trumpster's ignorance. Again, this is all just a big-stage reality show for Trump. He knows he's not getting that "wall". "The People" can raise all the money they want. It will just be a drop in the bucket to cover the real cost of the thing.
I agree with you. I suppose the point of my lengthy post is that people wanted to argue with me until I dropped facts. I make a simple post and suddenly people want to debate and demean character. I do some research to back up my statement and I hear nothing but crickets.
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      12-20-2018, 01:20 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Not_Judy View Post
Did a little research on a few things this morning. My position requires factual documentation in order for any project to commence so this is what I do.

The Mexican economy has a growth goal rate twice that of the US which is roughly 3.7%. The Mexican middle class is growing exponentially while the US middle class is a dying breed. Mexico’s economy is doing quite well. If this is the case then why do we have an immigration problem?
Most undocumented immigrants are not here because they illegally crossed the border. These are individuals that have overstayed their visas. Individuals who overstayed their visas outnumbered those who illegally crossed the border by 600,000 since 2007. It is also estimated that between 27 to 47 % of undocumented immigrants came to this country by planes. This information comes from the Center for Migration Studies. Illegal border crossings have plummeted from an estimated 1.8 million in 2000 to roughly 200,000 in 2015.

Trump demanded 5 billion dollars to be allocated for the construction of this wall. It has been estimated to cost more than 33 billion to build and 150 billion to maintain. Trumps wall, according to engineer’s estimates, will require more than 1.5 times the amount of concrete used in construction of the Hoover dam.

The US Mexico border is already one of the most heavily guarded borders between two sovereign countries in history.

Entities other than the federal government-states, Indian tribes and private parties control over two-thirds of the borderland property. The Bush administration offered no compensation for handing over their property and threatened to sue them if they did not hand it over. The government will use eminent domain in order to seize this property, but these lawsuits will be very expensive and impose some very costly delays in construction, thus adding to the initial cost. Native American tribes also have the ability to cease construction of border barriers and have pledged to fight efforts to build a wall. In 2007 when the Tohono O’odham Nation allowed vehicle barriers to be constructed, this resulted in desecration of Indian burial grounds and digging up of human remains. Trump would need a stand-alone bill from Congress to condemn their land.

Water rights also pose problematic in construction of a border wall. A 1970 treaty requires that the floodplain of the Rio Grande remain open to both sides of the border.

In 2006 Congress allocated 1.2 billion for a 700 mile border fence that the final cost ended up being 3.5 billion. In 2009 it was estimated that it would need to spend 325 million annually for 20 years to maintain just these 700 miles of fence. By 2015, Congress had already spent 7 billion on this project alone. This equates to 11.3 million per mile per decade.

On to economics, Mexico will not be paying for the wall. If the US imposes a tax on imports to Mexico then who do you think will be paying for the wall? The US citizens. Couple the wall with renegotiating NAFTA or launching a trade war with Mexico and the potential of a borderland recession and massive unemployment will only increase. This will start a likely surge in undocumented immigration all over again but in a much more dangerous way as the immigrants will find other ways around the wall.

The long and short of this is that this massive expenditure that will have little impact on immigration is nothing more than seed planting in the minds of the American voters. It would be the single-most expensive construction projects in American history costing as much as 20 Hoover dams.

Good fences DO NOT make good neighbors. Good people make good neighbors. It wasn’t true when Frost wrote it and it isn’t true now. When Frost wrote Mending Wall it was used to analyze the nature of relationships between neighbors functioning as a metaphor indicating the human need for separation and yet the need for friendship. The narrative in this poem also draws attention to the sheer rashness of mending the wall in the first place. No wall will ever stand the test of time. I will eventually fall due to either man-kind or the elements of nature. The narrator in the Mending Wall wants to get his point across to his neighbor but the neighbor arrogantly repeats his father’s comment of “Good fences make good neighbors.” Using this quote here simply does not fit this debate as it was originated only to depict a bull-headed and narrow-minded viewpoint.

The Great Wall of China was built in order to deter against incursions and although useful it still failed. In 1644 the Manchu Qing marched through the gates of Shanhai Pass. This being said and to touch on my previous made statement concerning maintenance costs, it is estimated that maintenance on the Great Wall of China is between 1 to 5 million dollars per mile. At 13,170 miles this equates to 13 billion to 65 billion in maintenance costs.

Border security is essential to a nation’s sovereignty I agree wholeheartedly. Yes, I agree that we need to protect our borders but a concrete wall that spans over 1,900 miles, I don’t feel is the answer. Yes the number shown here are a drop in the bucket compared to what we as a nation spend. What is the answer? I don’t know. I try to stay out of politics as it only pisses me off. Heated debates, name calling and assumption of others character are made because we as humans have a difficult time with facts, opinions and emotions. I made a comment about why I don’t feel that it is possible. What I should have said is why I do not feel it is feasible based off readily available facts/references and from things I encounter on a daily basis with what I do for a living. You all may continue you’re debate, but this is all I have to say about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_Judy View Post
I agree with you. I suppose the point of my lengthy post is that people wanted to argue with me until I dropped facts. I make a simple post and suddenly people want to debate and demean character. I do some research to back up my statement and I hear nothing but crickets.

TLDR....















(Actually, I did, and you and I mostly agree, I'd posted my thoughts on the wall much earlier in a different thread and the usual diatribe emerged, which was ok and entertaining for a day).
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      12-20-2018, 01:29 PM   #69
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As of lunchtime: $5,324,220 of $1.0B goal
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      12-20-2018, 01:35 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
As of lunchtime: $5,324,220 of $1.0B goal
So what happens if the goal isn't met - does the money just get returned? What if you decide you don't want to donate anymore, can you get it back / renege?

I'm very surprised there is that kind of monetary support. Though I guess if there are approx. 325M Americans and each of these donors only gave a dollar, that's only 1.5% of the population. Actually, that sounds more realistic. And without looking at the donations, I'm guessing a bunch are giving a lot more than a dollar.
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      12-20-2018, 01:43 PM   #71
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Actually, I did go to the page now. And I have a question:

Why under the Donate Now link does it give details of this Brian being in Miramar, FL BUT then, the cheques are supposed to be made out to him with an address in Castle Rock, CO? Which, upon looking it up, is a UPS mailbox site.

Am I just being overly skeptical?
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      12-20-2018, 01:45 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
So what happens if the goal isn't met - does the money just get returned? What if you decide you don't want to donate anymore, can you get it back / renege?

I'm very surprised there is that kind of monetary support. Though I guess if there are approx. 325M Americans and each of these donors only gave a dollar, that's only 1.5% of the population. Actually, that sounds more realistic. And without looking at the donations, I'm guessing a bunch are giving a lot more than a dollar.
I was thinking the same thing.

The whole thing is a bit ridiculous. People are trusting some doofus in Florida that he will use this money for the wall. What's to stop him from taking the money and fleeing to Mexico? I don't know how go-fund-me works. Are these pledges or real deposits?

I thought the wall was suppose to cost ~20B. What's the goal of this campaign?
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      12-20-2018, 01:46 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
I was thinking the same thing.

The whole thing is a bit ridiculous. People are trusting some doofus in Florida that he will use this money for the wall. What's to stop him from taking the money and fleeing to Mexico? I don't know how go-fund-me works. Are these pledges or real deposits?

I thought the wall was suppose to cost ~20B. What's the goal of this campaign?
Website protects the contributors. See below:

Per GoFundMe webpage:

Your donation is protected.
It takes a leap of faith to help someone else. That’s why we want to honor your generosity by backing it up with the first and only guarantee for crowdfunding: the GoFundMe Guarantee. In the rare case that something isn’t right, we will refund your donation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
So what happens if the goal isn't met - does the money just get returned? What if you decide you don't want to donate anymore, can you get it back / renege?

I'm very surprised there is that kind of monetary support. Though I guess if there are approx. 325M Americans and each of these donors only gave a dollar, that's only 1.5% of the population. Actually, that sounds more realistic. And without looking at the donations, I'm guessing a bunch are giving a lot more than a dollar.
Per the GoFundMe, if the goal isn't reach, it is all refunded.

Per the web page:

1) We will hold all funds and not release a single penny until we have all legal aspects covered to ensure our money goes only to the wall.

2) If we don’t reach our goal or come significantly close we will refund every single penny. We are working on a time frame to achieve.

3) “If the 63 million people who voted for Trump each pledge $80, we can build the wall.” That equates to roughly 5Billion Dollars, even if we get half, that's half the wall.

Some of the higher donations below:
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      12-20-2018, 01:52 PM   #74
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Go-fund-me charges 5% on top of any credit card fees received so if they reach their goal the company will net at least $50M
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      12-20-2018, 01:55 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
So what happens if the goal isn't met - does the money just get returned? What if you decide you don't want to donate anymore, can you get it back / renege?

I'm very surprised there is that kind of monetary support. Though I guess if there are approx. 325M Americans and each of these donors only gave a dollar, that's only 1.5% of the population. Actually, that sounds more realistic. And without looking at the donations, I'm guessing a bunch are giving a lot more than a dollar.
Will anyone here be brave enough to match Trumps donation amount?
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      12-20-2018, 01:56 PM   #76
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I think this is a great way to get a mailing list. In the end the money will get refunded but the names will be retained.
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      12-20-2018, 02:01 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Website protects the contributors. See below:

Per GoFundMe webpage:

Your donation is protected.
It takes a leap of faith to help someone else. That’s why we want to honor your generosity by backing it up with the first and only guarantee for crowdfunding: the GoFundMe Guarantee. In the rare case that something isn’t right, we will refund your donation.




Per the GoFundMe, if the goal isn't reach, it is all refunded.

Per the web page:

1) We will hold all funds and not release a single penny until we have all legal aspects covered to ensure our money goes only to the wall.

2) If we don’t reach our goal or come significantly close we will refund every single penny. We are working on a time frame to achieve.

3) “If the 63 million people who voted for Trump each pledge $80, we can build the wall.” That equates to roughly 5Billion Dollars, even if we get half, that's half the wall.

Some of the higher donations below:
Maybe it gets refunded - but what are your views about the differing addresses that I asked about? Sketchy or not?
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      12-20-2018, 02:04 PM   #78
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The best way for Trump to get his wall is to announce he doesn’t want it...

Pull a Brer Rabbit on ‘em.
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      12-20-2018, 02:04 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Go-fund-me charges 5% on top of any credit card fees received so if they reach their goal the company will net at least $50M
I doubt that. I can't imagine Go Fund Me has somehow managed to get a deal with the credit card companies where they and they alone are the only ones who don't pay credit card processing fees. Which are probably about 3% or higher...maybe a lot higher in the States.

Their net would be a lot lower, after paying admin costs and etc.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      12-20-2018, 02:09 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Herdalum View Post
The best way for Trump to get his wall is to announce he doesn’t want it...

Pull a Brer Rabbit on ‘em.
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      12-20-2018, 02:14 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
I doubt that. I can't imagine Go Fund Me has somehow managed to get a deal with the credit card companies where they and they alone are the only ones who don't pay credit card processing fees. Which are probably about 3% or higher...maybe a lot higher in the States.

Their net would be a lot lower, after paying admin costs and etc.
I think you are right. They used to charge an over the top fee but now it's just the CC processing fee 2.9% + $0.30 per donation so Go Fund Me probable make a small margin on the CC fees.
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      12-20-2018, 02:20 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post

In the United States, it is illegal to generate a profit as a business from collecting a portion of credit car processing fees. These fees generally average between 2-5%, depending on the card issuer, with AMEX being the highest.
Are you sure about that. All merchant providers offer a buy and sell rate for CC transactions. It's definitely not illegal in Canada.
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      12-20-2018, 02:27 PM   #83
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Unsure, but I would imagine there is some sort of escrow service being employed to ensure appropriate safeguard and allocation of funds.

I'm not saying that a GoFundMe contribution of any kind isn't risky, I'm just saying that in general, there are safeguards to protect contributors to a reasonable degree.

An escrow service in the form of a rented mailbox at a UPS store? Come now.

If it was legit, I'd use a lawyer as an escrow agent, at least there would be some insurance (though not enough) and it would look better for everyone involved.

The more I think about the differences, the more I feel it is sketchy.
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      12-20-2018, 02:29 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
Are you sure about that. All merchant providers offer a buy and sell rate for CC transactions. It's definitely not illegal in Canada.
Federal law, which was enacted in 2013, states that no merchant can generate a majority of their total revenue from credit card transaction fees that is not a credit card company or bank.

In addition, many states in which large companies reside (can be physical residence or incorporation) prevent any company from passing on or charging the customer any transaction fees imposed by the card issuer. As of now, credit card surcharges are illegal in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Oklahoma, Maine and Texas.

For those states where it is allowed, another interesting point is that if a merchant adds surcharges for Visa and MasterCard transactions, they must apply it to American Express cards, too. This, however, puts merchants in violation with their agreements with Amex.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
An escrow service in the form of a rented mailbox at a UPS store? Come now.

If it was legit, I'd use a lawyer as an escrow agent, at least there would be some insurance (though not enough) and it would look better for everyone involved.

The more I think about the differences, the more I feel it is sketchy.
I personally think this is probably legit. Note, however, I don't feel confident enough in this assessment where I would donate any of my money, lol.
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      12-20-2018, 02:32 PM   #85
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I love everyone defending the wall, completely ignoring the fact that 1) Tunnels are commonly found going underneath the wall 2) Many people still find ways directly over the wall 3) Like everything else pointed out here, most are not due to just walking over the border...
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      12-20-2018, 02:42 PM   #86
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Even if the money was there, it would takes years, possibly over a decade before they could break ground on the thing and that's assuming they could get through all the regulatory hurdles, imminent domain issues, and lawsuits from private parties and activist groups. Trump would be long gone by then and the thing squashed.

Trumpsters lack the ability to think rationally and critically.

I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish with $1B. They'd be better served donating it to a Trump charity or taking a class at Trump U......oh wait...
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      12-20-2018, 02:44 PM   #87
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Over $6M raised now.
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      12-20-2018, 03:02 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Even if the money was there, it would takes years, possibly over a decade before they could break ground on the thing and that's assuming they could get through all the regulatory hurdles, imminent domain issues, and lawsuits from private parties and activist groups. Trump would be long gone by then and the thing squashed.

Trumpsters lack the ability to think rationally and critically.

I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish with $1B. They'd be better served donating it to a Trump charity or taking a class at Trump U......oh wait...
Yep, all trumpers are teh dumb....

Just like all anti-trumpers are teh dumb....

Does people building the wall personally affect you? You sound like a moron.
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