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      12-20-2018, 09:11 AM   #1
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Trump Orders Abrupt Withdrawal From Syria

https://www.apnews.com/583a18db0cd340a1a553c64ff9a47ef9

Of all the things Trump has done, this is one really pisses me off. The Kurds were fucked over by Bush 41 and other ethnic groups in Iraq when his administration told them to rise up against Saddam. And then stood by while Saddam slaughtered them. The Kurds have helped us against so many different enemies in the region, Saddam/Baath Party, Iran, ISIS, Assad/Syria, Al Qaeda and probably even against Erdogan/Turkey.

I remember friends asking me why certain tribes in Iraq didn't want to work with US troops to push AL Qaeda out. This is the reason why. Because you can't trust the US won't just up and leave and then you/your family are left with the aftermath. And we know how this ends up. From what I read Trump is selling them out for an arms deal to Erdogan and Turkey.

But, hey it is all about Trump demanding loyalty to him and giving nothing back in return for it.
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      12-20-2018, 09:14 AM   #2
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What's the Russian position on this? Was this a request from trump's boss in the kremlin?
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      12-20-2018, 09:18 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
What's the Russian position on this? Was this a request from trump's boss in the kremlin?
That is what is so bizzare about this decision. Israel was caught of guard and their are Iranian troops in Syria, which Trump supposedly wanted to counter.

It isn't just the Kurds that are unhappy about this. It is the Israelis, Jordanians, I'm guessing the Saudis etc etc. There really is no rhyme or reason to Trump's thinking, especially on foreign policy. It could of been simply the arms deal to Turkey and they said they wanted us out so they could take out the Kurds in Syria once and for all if possible as a condition for the sale.
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      12-20-2018, 09:20 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
https://www.apnews.com/583a18db0cd340a1a553c64ff9a47ef9

Of all the things Trump has done, this is one really pisses me off. The Kurds were fucked over by Bush 41 and other ethnic groups in Iraq when his administration told them to rise up against Saddam. And then stood by while Saddam slaughtered them. The Kurds have helped us against so many different enemies in the region, Saddam/Baath Party, Iran, ISIS, Assad/Syria, Al Qaeda and probably even against Erdogan/Turkey.

I remember friends asking me why certain tribes in Iraq didn't want to work with US troops to push AL Qaeda out. This is the reason why. Because you can't trust the US won't just up and leave and then you/your family are left with the aftermath. And we know how this ends up. From what I read Trump is selling them out for an arms deal to Erdogan and Turkey.

But, hey it is all about Trump demanding loyalty to him and giving nothing back in return for it.
I suspect Turkey is going to start hammering the Kurds in Syria and there was/is nothing we can do to stop it.

As you can see due to the complexities in the ME we have no business being there in general let alone in Syria.
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      12-20-2018, 09:26 AM   #5
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The USA screwing over the Kurds was terrible and they really got the shaft. Not sure how that relates to Syria, though.

Personally, I think this whole Syria mess is terrible and as much as it pains me to say this, I have to side with the Russian's on this one. Bashar al-Assad may not have been a gentle leader, but I will take a country ruled by him over the current failed state and terrorist stronghold that is currently there. The USA really needs to just leave the bulk of these countries alone. The same goes for what happened in Libya. Muammar Gaddafi may have been a pretty bad dude, but I honestly feel that the country is in worse shape now.

The devil you know is frequently better than the devil you don't.

With respect to your comment about Trump leaving on behest of Turkey, not sure about that rationale, since I believe that Turkey supports the insurgents, not Bashar. I honestly think the only reason the USA picked the side it is on in this fight is due to the fact that Iran, Hezbollah, and Russia picked the other side - so de facto it must be the wrong side.

While this is usually the case, it may not be so in this situation. In general, nearly every single country that has been involved in uprisings due to the Arab Spring have been worse off than the dictators or governments that they had beforehand. I don't foresee Syria being any different.
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      12-20-2018, 09:27 AM   #6
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Um...he seems to be batting 1000 vs Obama (batting 0) on the world stage. We can't keep troops everywhere. They need to come home and defend our southern border
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      12-20-2018, 09:36 AM   #7
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To all I agree with some of what you say. As for Turkey supporting the insurgents........as you said it is extremely complicated and it depends on what insurgents you are talking about.

It was actually written about long ago that US troops were helping the Kurds set up outposts on the Syrian/Turkey border to watch/detect attacks coming. Also just having US troops working with them stopped Turkey, Assad and Russia from attacking them. Now it will be a free for all. It is one thing to an orderly pull out and let your allies at least have some time to do what preparations they can do. But, to do it like this is just wrong and a huge slap in the face to a long time and very loyal ally in the region.
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      12-20-2018, 09:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
That is what is so bizzare about this decision. Israel was caught of guard and their are Iranian troops in Syria, which Trump supposedly wanted to counter.

It isn't just the Kurds that are unhappy about this. It is the Israelis, Jordanians, I'm guessing the Saudis etc etc. There really is no rhyme or reason to Trump's thinking, especially on foreign policy. It could of been simply the arms deal to Turkey and they said they wanted us out so they could take out the Kurds in Syria once and for all if possible as a condition for the sale.
We are talking about 2,000 troops that were not really doing much. I agree that the Kurds are getting screwed, but the other countries are not worried.

I predict that the Syrian war part 2 is about 2-3 years away and the next time it's going to be much bigger. Saudia Arabia, Iran, Usa, Russia, Turkey, Israel will be using Syria and most likely Lebanon as their battle ground again. Nobody wants the fight to be in their own country and they found the perfect place for them to get it done.

I do sometimes wonder if Assad is still alive, he doesn't seem to age at all in pictures.
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      12-20-2018, 10:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
We are talking about 2,000 troops that were not really doing much. I agree that the Kurds are getting screwed, but the other countries are not worried.

I predict that the Syrian war part 2 is about 2-3 years away and the next time it's going to be much bigger. Saudia Arabia, Iran, Usa, Russia, Turkey, Israel will be using Syria and most likely Lebanon as their battle ground again. Nobody wants the fight to be in their own country and they found the perfect place for them to get it done.

I do sometimes wonder if Assad is still alive, he doesn't seem to age at all in pictures.
Yah not doing much except for keeping them alive by preventing multiple different factions from attacking them.
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      12-20-2018, 10:04 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Yah not doing much except for keeping them alive by preventing multiple different factions from attacking them.
I agree, that was ill worded. I meant not doing much for the other countries, I agree with you that the Kurds will suffer.
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      12-20-2018, 10:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
That is what is so bizzare about this decision. Israel was caught of guard and their are Iranian troops in Syria, which Trump supposedly wanted to counter.

It isn't just the Kurds that are unhappy about this. It is the Israelis, Jordanians, I'm guessing the Saudis etc etc. There really is no rhyme or reason to Trump's thinking, especially on foreign policy. It could of been simply the arms deal to Turkey and they said they wanted us out so they could take out the Kurds in Syria once and for all if possible as a condition for the sale.
We are talking about 2,000 troops that were not really doing much. I agree that the Kurds are getting screwed, but the other countries are not worried.

I predict that the Syrian war part 2 is about 2-3 years away and the next time it's going to be much bigger. Saudia Arabia, Iran, Usa, Russia, Turkey, Israel will be using Syria and most likely Lebanon as their battle ground again. Nobody wants the fight to be in their own country and they found the perfect place for them to get it done.

I do sometimes wonder if Assad is still alive, he doesn't seem to age at all in pictures.
Meh, let them kill each other. They're like alcoholics in that they can only straighten up when they've decided they hit rock bottom.
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      12-20-2018, 10:05 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
To all I agree with some of what you say. As for Turkey supporting the insurgents........as you said it is extremely complicated and it depends on what insurgents you are talking about.

It was actually written about long ago that US troops were helping the Kurds set up outposts on the Syrian/Turkey border to watch/detect attacks coming. Also just having US troops working with them stopped Turkey, Assad and Russia from attacking them. Now it will be a free for all. It is one thing to an orderly pull out and let your allies at least have some time to do what preparations they can do. But, to do it like this is just wrong and a huge slap in the face to a long time and very loyal ally in the region.

1) I don't see any timeline indicated, just that it was announced. As such, one can likely ascertain that the timeline of withdrawal will be sufficient to allow our allies appropriate time to get affairs in order.

2) We had a whopping 1,500-2,000 total troops in Syria, and this includes logistics, support, repair crews, cooks, yeoman, and all manner of REMF's. I would imagine that our total actual combat troops on the line are less than a full battalion. This is but a drop in the bucket of all those fighting and I doubt it will make a massive impact.
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      12-20-2018, 10:08 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
1) I don't see any timeline indicated, just that it was announced. As such, one can likely ascertain that the timeline of withdrawal will be sufficient to allow our allies appropriate time to get affairs in order.

2) We had a whopping 1,500-2,000 total troops in Syria, and this includes logistics, support, repair crews, cooks, yeoman, and all manner of REMF's. I would imagine that our total actual combat troops on the line are less than a full battalion. This is but a drop in the bucket of all those fighting and I doubt it will make a massive impact.
This.

I also believe that the psychological impact on the announcement is the actual issue. Any time our troops withdraw it is demoralizing for our allies and the relationship with the Kurds is fraught with challenges because they've been shafted so many times and not just by us.

Cheers-mk
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      12-20-2018, 10:12 AM   #14
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This whole thing reminds me of this.

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      12-20-2018, 10:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
To all I agree with some of what you say. As for Turkey supporting the insurgents........as you said it is extremely complicated and it depends on what insurgents you are talking about.

It was actually written about long ago that US troops were helping the Kurds set up outposts on the Syrian/Turkey border to watch/detect attacks coming. Also just having US troops working with them stopped Turkey, Assad and Russia from attacking them. Now it will be a free for all. It is one thing to an orderly pull out and let your allies at least have some time to do what preparations they can do. But, to do it like this is just wrong and a huge slap in the face to a long time and very loyal ally in the region.
Erdogan has similar ideologies to ISIS, but not quite to their extremes. He's a bad guy.
The decision to pull out comes at odds with the GOP and Trumps own NSA, Bolton.
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      12-20-2018, 10:18 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
1) I don't see any timeline indicated, just that it was announced. As such, one can likely ascertain that the timeline of withdrawal will be sufficient to allow our allies appropriate time to get affairs in order.

2) We had a whopping 1,500-2,000 total troops in Syria, and this includes logistics, support, repair crews, cooks, yeoman, and all manner of REMF's. I would imagine that our total actual combat troops on the line are less than a full battalion. This is but a drop in the bucket of all those fighting and I doubt it will make a massive impact.
Right, but as I said earlier, even if it is only a handful of troops that provides cover for whoever they are with. Most countries are not going to kill US troops for obvious reasons unless they are stateless like terrorist organisations.
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      12-20-2018, 10:18 AM   #17
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Nice to know Trump’s pull-out game is still good.
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      12-20-2018, 10:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
This whole thing reminds me of this.

We lost Syria in 2014, when our last administration couldn't decide if we were fighting Assad or Isis. Then Russia came in and made our involvement useless.

These 2,000 troops were never put there to win anything.
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      12-20-2018, 10:25 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
We lost Syria in 2014, when our last administration couldn't decide if we were fighting Assad or Isis. Then Russia came in and made our involvement useless.

These 2,000 troops were never put there to win anything.
Statement 1 is correct! Obama really screwed up. Though his screw up wasn't deciding who to fight. His lack of support for the rebels not affiliated with ISIS or Al Qaeda and his deciding not to kick Syria's ass for their use of chemical weapon was short sighted and disastrous.
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      12-20-2018, 10:25 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Erdogan has similar ideologies to ISIS, but not quite to their extremes. He's a bad guy.
The decision to pull out comes at odds with the GOP and Trumps own NSA, Bolton.
The Erdogan question is interesting. He had announced he was going to buy the S-400 system, which for good reason sent the west into a tizzy. And now no mention of that and just before Trump announces a rapids pullout, (which appears to be underway as we speak) he announces a huge sale of Patriot missiles to Turkey. It is the same thing with Saudi Arabia for Trump. As long as you buy stuff from the US you can do whatever to whoever. Apparently even if it is to long time/very very good allies.

To those saying we should pull out of Syria and have no business being there or the ME in general (which, I don't completely disagree with) when is the announcement we are pulling the fifth fleet etc out of Bahrain, CENTCOM personnel and whole host of other places in the Middle East region?
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      12-20-2018, 10:38 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
The Erdogan question is interesting. He had announced he was going to buy the S-400 system, which for good reason sent the west into a tizzy. And now no mention of that and just before Trump announces a rapids pullout, (which appears to be underway as we speak) he announces a huge sale of Patriot missiles to Turkey. It is the same thing with Saudi Arabia for Trump. As long as you buy stuff from the US you can do whatever to whoever. Apparently even if it is to long time/very very good allies.

To those saying we should pull out of Syria and have no business being there or the ME in general (which, I don't completely disagree with) when is the announcement we are pulling the fifth fleet etc out of Bahrain, CENTCOM personnel and whole host of other places in the Middle East region?
I understand what you are saying, but in general wouldn't you want your opposition to have a weapon you built over a weapon you don't know everything about?

Pretty sure this is the same reason Israel sells weapons to Turkey and Saudi Arabia. At the very least they know everything about that plane, missile, etc...And they would rather go up against something they know from head to toe than not.
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      12-20-2018, 10:38 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post

To those saying we should pull out of Syria and have no business being there or the ME in general (which, I don't completely disagree with) when is the announcement we are pulling the fifth fleet etc out of Bahrain, CENTCOM personnel and whole host of other places in the Middle East region?

Big difference between having FOB's throughout the world and actively participating in the civil war of a country. I've been in Bahrain many times whilst in the military and understand the rational for it's location. How many times have you been there?

When it comes to intervening in internal disputes of other countries, my general policy is that the USA should for the most part, act like the big friendly guy in high school. If he sees two assholes fighting, he will generally leave them alone (Iran vs Iraq). He sees some innocent little kid getting picked on by a bully, then he comes to the rescue (think Bosnia). Of course, the USA doesn't typically adhere to my way of thought. In addition, it gets more complicated when there are third party actors out there. Syria is a good example. Bashar is a despot. The bulk of those who started the civil war were ISIL and other terrorist groups and arguably worse than Bashar. The problem is that millions of honest and decent civilians got caught in the crossfire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I understand what you are saying, but in general wouldn't you want your opposition to have a weapon you built over a weapon you don't know everything about?

Pretty sure this is the same reason Israel sells weapons to Turkey and Saudi Arabia. At the very least they know everything about that plane, missile, etc...And they would rather go up against something they know from head to toe than not.
It actually has less to do about knowledge and more to do about the ability to withdraw repair parts, maintenance crews, and ongoing training. Most weapons systems need an enormous amount of upkeep. Take that away, and they systems become useless. This is the key.

But yes, overall - your thinking is correct.
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