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      12-20-2018, 09:40 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I understand what you are saying, but in general wouldn't you want your opposition to have a weapon you built over a weapon you don't know everything about?

Pretty sure this is the same reason Israel sells weapons to Turkey and Saudi Arabia. At the very least they know everything about that plane, missile, etc...And they would rather go up against something they know from head to toe than not.
Actually it would be great if Turkey bought the s-4000. Maybe we could take a nice close look at it. I still think its overrated.
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      12-20-2018, 09:44 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I understand what you are saying, but in general wouldn't you want your opposition to have a weapon you built over a weapon you don't know everything about?

Pretty sure this is the same reason Israel sells weapons to Turkey and Saudi Arabia. At the very least they know everything about that plane, missile, etc...And they would rather go up against something they know from head to toe than not.
Damn you pretty much nailed it.
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      12-20-2018, 09:45 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I understand what you are saying, but in general wouldn't you want your opposition to have a weapon you built over a weapon you don't know everything about?

Pretty sure this is the same reason Israel sells weapons to Turkey and Saudi Arabia. At the very least they know everything about that plane, missile, etc...And they would rather go up against something they know from head to toe than not.
I actually think this has less to do about weapons and more about Russia/Putin sniping a key ally away from us in the region such as Turkey.
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      12-20-2018, 09:49 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I actually think this has less to do about weapons and more about Russia/Putin sniping a key ally away from us in the region such as Turkey.
I think it has less to do with Russia and more to do with Iran. I think it is Iran that is trying to recruit Erdogan, but they are still far from succeeding.

What Erdogan says in public and what he actually does is usually very different.
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      12-20-2018, 09:56 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djsaad1 View Post
I think it has less to do with Russia and more to do with Iran. I think it is Iran that is trying to recruit Erdogan, but they are still far from succeeding.

What Erdogan says in public and what he actually does is usually very different.
I'm sure there are very complex political negotiations going on between many parties.

Speaking of complicated. Here is the whole S-400, Patriot, F-35 deal explained in a nice article. Apparently Erdogan wanted a technology transfer as part of the deal to buy the Patriot system, which the US told him no twice. He tried to bluff by buying a Chinese system and then backed out. Then announced the purchase of the S-400 system, which may or may not still be delivered. If it is apparently they are frozen out of F-35 sales. Unless Trump has acquiesced to their demands and pushes to allow the sale of the F-35 to them anyway. All sorts of crap going on.

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/spac...s-perspective/

But, that is a my main point. We are abandoning an ally that has helped us in innumerable ways over the better part of three decades in the region for supposed allies like Erdogan?

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      12-20-2018, 10:00 AM   #28
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Seems like the happiest person out of this whole thing is Putin.

The biggest question is why is Trumps own party so split on this? Why does the military not agree with Trump? Makes tons of sense that common people really have no idea about behind the scenes reasons, negations etc, but it makes no sense to have so many people "in the know" say WTF?
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      12-20-2018, 10:01 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Big difference between having FOB's throughout the world and actively participating in the civil war of a country. I've been in Bahrain many times whilst in the military and understand the rational for it's location. How many times have you been there?

When it comes to intervening in internal disputes of other countries, my general policy is that the USA should for the most part, act like the big friendly guy in high school. If he sees two assholes fighting, he will generally leave them alone (Iran vs Iraq). He sees some innocent little kid getting picked on by a bully, then he comes to the rescue (think Bosnia). Of course, the USA doesn't typically adhere to my way of thought. In addition, it gets more complicated when there are third party actors out there. Syria is a good example. Bashar is a despot. The bulk of those who started the civil war were ISIL and other terrorist groups and arguably worse than Bashar. The problem is that millions of honest and decent civilians got caught in the crossfire.




It actually has less to do about knowledge and more to do about the ability to withdraw repair parts, maintenance crews, and ongoing training. Most weapons systems need an enormous amount of upkeep. Take that away, and they systems become useless. This is the key.

But yes, overall - your thinking is correct.
This is how I feel about the Kurds and they are getting fucked over royally after helping the US in every way possible for nearly three decades (possibly more). I think it is a huge mistake by Trump as he ramps up against Iran. The Kurds will be very useful in that fight for a number of reasons. They are not an asset from a practical matter that we want to lose even if people don't care about the humanity aspect of it.

The F-14 sale to Iran is a great example as to what you are talking about in regards to complex weapons systems. They became unflyable pretty quickly when they were cut off from spare parts. They kept some flying for awhile by cannibalizing other plans, but even that didn't last long.
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      12-20-2018, 10:04 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassicaia View Post
Seems like the happiest person out of this whole thing is Putin.

The biggest question is why is Trumps own party so split on this? Why does the military not agree with Trump? Makes tons of sense that common people really have no idea about behind the scenes reasons, negations etc, but it makes no sense to have so many people "in the know" say WTF?
I wonder what the master negotiator got from Putin for leaving Syria alone now. Such as leaving our allies alone........somehow I doubt it.
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      12-20-2018, 10:09 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
This is how I feel about the Kurds and they are getting fucked over royally after helping the US in every way possible for nearly three decades (possibly more). I think it is a huge mistake by Trump as he ramps up against Iran. The Kurds will be very useful in that fight for a number of reasons. They are not an asset from a practical matter that we want to lose even if people don't care about the humanity aspect of it.

The F-14 sale to Iran is a great example as to what you are talking about in regards to complex weapons systems. They became unflyable pretty quickly when they were cut off from spare parts. They kept some flying for awhile by cannibalizing other plans, but even that didn't last long.
We don't typically agree on many things, but I agree with you this. The only issue, is that the YPG is really stepping beyond where they should have on this by declaring the northern part of Syria their own country. I know that Turkey makes threats against the Kurds, but I don't believe they will initiate an all out assault once the few American troops that are there depart.

You are correct, though, in that it is likely a demoralizing issue for the Kurds, and one that they will probably not forget. One can also argue, however, that the main reason we had troops there (to combat ISIL) has been concluded. As such, there really isn't a reason for America to risk the lives of our citizens anymore.

Also - you are 100% correct about the F-14's and Iran. That was one of the instances I was referring to when responding to the other post.
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      12-20-2018, 10:33 AM   #32
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Regretfully for the Kurds, we and the Israelis are the only ones that side with them. So when we need them again they will have no choice but to work with us.

I never understood why Europe is in such an uproar about a country for the Palestinians, but never mentions the Kurds.
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      12-20-2018, 10:41 AM   #33
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Regime changes in the Middle East always seem to work out so well.
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      12-20-2018, 11:02 AM   #34
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I'm mixed about this. On one hand, not sure what more we can accomplish in Syria. If we've met our objectives, it's time to leave.

On the other hand, throwing the Kurds under the bus because of Turkey is sickening. One of the reasons we were able to defeat ISIS so completely was because of the Kurds. I even got to meet the Kurdish war council on Erbil in 2016. They are the some of the best allies we have in the region.


Now with that said, I don't agree with the way this went down. This seemed to be abrupt without any approval from the Pentagon which is leading me to believe this is short sighted and not based on any real assessment. Trump is not exactly a military mastermind and needs to listen to the people who are professionals at this.
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      12-20-2018, 12:10 PM   #35
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This whole thing reminds me of this.

I thought the exact same thing.
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      12-20-2018, 12:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
I'm mixed about this. On one hand, not sure what more we can accomplish in Syria. If we've met our objectives, it's time to leave.

On the other hand, throwing the Kurds under the bus because of Turkey is sickening. One of the reasons we were able to defeat ISIS so completely was because of the Kurds. I even got to meet the Kurdish war council on Erbil in 2016. They are the some of the best allies we have in the region.


Now with that said, I don't agree with the way this went down. This seemed to be abrupt without any approval from the Pentagon which is leading me to believe this is short sighted and not based on any real assessment. Trump is not exactly a military mastermind and needs to listen to the people who are professionals at this.
He seems to be treating this as a business deal. He was probably told that this is the only way he can stop the Russia/Turkey deal. The withdrawal favors Turkey the most.

I don't know if this is the right move or not, we are for sure throwing the Kurds under the bus. But at the same time it does make sense for us to want to stop the Russia/Turkey Deal.
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      12-20-2018, 12:18 PM   #37
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There are better ways to do it though instead of giving the Kurds up in Syria.

I flew CAS for the YPG and our SOF in Syria. We don't do this to our allies. This will make it even harder to get groups on our side when we need them.
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      12-20-2018, 01:06 PM   #38
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I guess there is the hope of Trump saying this publicly to get the U.S. deal signed and then never actually following through.
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      12-20-2018, 05:24 PM   #39
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the pull out is a gimme to russia.
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      12-20-2018, 05:44 PM   #40
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Here's an idea. Get rid of most of the problem which we did. Then let them fight for their own country.

I have two Grandsons in the military. If they have to die fighting...let it be for defending the U.S. directly instead of propping up a shithole country where these peoples have been fighting each other for the dawn of time.

I assume none of you have no loved ones stationed in Syria..didn't think so.
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      12-20-2018, 05:52 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
I have two Grandsons in the military. If they have to die fighting...let it be for defending the U.S. directly instead of propping up a shithole country where these peoples have been fighting each other for the dawn of time.

I assume none of you have no loved ones stationed in Syria..didn't think so.
They signed up, thus they do and go where they're told. Part of the deal being the military, ya know?

Lastly, most military strategists would say you don't wait for the fight to come to you.
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      12-20-2018, 06:54 PM   #42
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Busy day. First withdrawing from Syria and now Afghanistan draw down https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tr...tan-2018-12-20
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      12-20-2018, 07:52 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
I'm mixed about this. On one hand, not sure what more we can accomplish in Syria. If we've met our objectives, it's time to leave.

On the other hand, throwing the Kurds under the bus because of Turkey is sickening. One of the reasons we were able to defeat ISIS so completely was because of the Kurds. I even got to meet the Kurdish war council on Erbil in 2016. They are the some of the best allies we have in the region.


Now with that said, I don't agree with the way this went down. This seemed to be abrupt without any approval from the Pentagon which is leading me to believe this is short sighted and not based on any real assessment. Trump is not exactly a military mastermind and needs to listen to the people who are professionals at this.
A analogy would be Latinos in California wanting to create Mexicali by merging California with Sonora (Mex.) and Baja California (Mex).


Of course the right to self-determination isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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      12-20-2018, 07:55 PM   #44
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Busy day. First withdrawing from Syria and now Afghanistan draw down https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tr...tan-2018-12-20
And SecDef has resigned.
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