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      12-21-2018, 01:49 PM   #89
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Perhaps, just perhaps, if we hadn't interfered in Iran in the 1950's, there may not have been a war with Iraq and possibly no disagreement with Kuwait which lead to an invasion.

As for the Taliban and Mujahideen, both had a belief in Jihad (although there are minor differences). That is their commonality.

As for USSR I never said they broke apart in the 1970s. I said they were beginning to and oil was covering up the cracks. As in as long as oil is high they can keep everything together. Think Venezuela today.

I don't know what you mean by WW2? The Treaty of Versailles bankrupted Germany and was the incubator which brought us Hitler.

What about Vietnam? Panama? Somalia? Iran-Contra?
I'll take whataboutism for a thousand, Alex.




I believe I mentioned multiple times that some of our interference has been for the right reasons and some has not.

Panama = bad reasons
Vietnam = good reasons, but done the wrong way due to pussies in congress who wouldn't put both feet in the pool
Somalia = Right reasons, we should have been there. I was, were you?

I could spend all night writing about the reasons Iran-Contra was needed, mostly due to inept democrat congressional oversight that wouldn't do the right things, forcing the North's hand.
I opted against enlisting for a variety of reasons. Denial of the Gulf War Syndrome for example. Seemed like the initial denial over Agent Orange. The general ravages of war such as a US Marine who had his legs and half his ass blown off because he stepped on a land mine in a rice paddy.
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      12-21-2018, 02:05 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
I opted against enlisting for a variety of reasons. Denial of the Gulf War Syndrome for example. Seemed like the initial denial over Agent Orange. The general ravages of war such as a US Marine who had his legs and half his ass blown off because he stepped on a land mine in a rice paddy.
Fair - being in the military isn't for everyone. If you are not that type of person, there is nothing wrong with that.

I am simply saying that you should respect the statements of fact from a person who spent a good portion of his life on the ground in these countries working hand in hand with many of the locals as well as someone who has much experience at the higher levels when dealing with these issues.

What you are reading in media outlets, websites, etc is not always the full picture and is frequently being fed to you by someone with an agenda. Use all the resources at your disposal and come to your own conclusions.

Some of your points in this thread have been solid and of sound logic, but some are obviously regurgitated from the same talking points that Rand Paul et al get theirs from. No source has all the data, do your own due diligence is all I am saying.

---------

War and military conflict is frequently not the answer and almost never the only or first answer. It is important to note, however, that sometimes it is.


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      12-21-2018, 02:32 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
I opted against enlisting for a variety of reasons. Denial of the Gulf War Syndrome for example. Seemed like the initial denial over Agent Orange. The general ravages of war such as a US Marine who had his legs and half his ass blown off because he stepped on a land mine in a rice paddy.
Fair - being in the military isn't for everyone. If you are not that type of person, there is nothing wrong with that.

I am simply saying that you should respect the statements of fact from a person who spent a good portion of his life on the ground in these countries working hand in hand with many of the locals as well as someone who has much experience at the higher levels when dealing with these issues.

What you are reading in media outlets, websites, etc is not always the full picture and is frequently being fed to you by someone with an agenda. Use all the resources at your disposal and come to your own conclusions.

Some of your points in this thread have been solid and of sound logic, but some are obviously regurgitated from the same talking points that Rand Paul et al get theirs from. No source has all the data, do your own due diligence is all I am saying.

---------

War and military conflict is frequently not the answer and almost never the only or first answer. It is important to note, however, that sometimes it is.


Understood. I was attempting to show the interconnectedness of it all. Demonstrate that no one event occurs in a vacuum.
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      12-21-2018, 08:11 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
I opted against enlisting for a variety of reasons. Denial of the Gulf War Syndrome for example. Seemed like the initial denial over Agent Orange. The general ravages of war such as a US Marine who had his legs and half his ass blown off because he stepped on a land mine in a rice paddy.
Fair - being in the military isn't for everyone. If you are not that type of person, there is nothing wrong with that.

I am simply saying that you should respect the statements of fact from a person who spent a good portion of his life on the ground in these countries working hand in hand with many of the locals as well as someone who has much experience at the higher levels when dealing with these issues.

What you are reading in media outlets, websites, etc is not always the full picture and is frequently being fed to you by someone with an agenda. Use all the resources at your disposal and come to your own conclusions.

Some of your points in this thread have been solid and of sound logic, but some are obviously regurgitated from the same talking points that Rand Paul et al get theirs from. No source has all the data, do your own due diligence is all I am saying.

---------

War and military conflict is frequently not the answer and almost never the only or first answer. It is important to note, however, that sometimes it is.


Understood. I was attempting to show the interconnectedness of it all. Demonstrate that no one event occurs in a vacuum.
Sources? Links?
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      12-21-2018, 08:32 PM   #93
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Listening to NBC news tonight was bizarre. They acted like bc Mattis is leaving the world will go up in flames, there is chaos, the sky is falling. Scheesch.

My grandson shipped out to Missouri after 20 weeks of training and 3 days later they decided he "needed" to return for 11 days of leave. The military wastes 1 out of 4 dollars I suppose my grandsons travels are snafu'd bc Mattis is leaving . scheesch

I am glad we are leaving Afghanistan. Russians lost 15K KIA and us 2400..for what. As useless as VietNam.
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      12-21-2018, 08:48 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
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I opted against enlisting for a variety of reasons. Denial of the Gulf War Syndrome for example. Seemed like the initial denial over Agent Orange. The general ravages of war such as a US Marine who had his legs and half his ass blown off because he stepped on a land mine in a rice paddy.
Fair - being in the military isn't for everyone. If you are not that type of person, there is nothing wrong with that.

I am simply saying that you should respect the statements of fact from a person who spent a good portion of his life on the ground in these countries working hand in hand with many of the locals as well as someone who has much experience at the higher levels when dealing with these issues.

What you are reading in media outlets, websites, etc is not always the full picture and is frequently being fed to you by someone with an agenda. Use all the resources at your disposal and come to your own conclusions.

Some of your points in this thread have been solid and of sound logic, but some are obviously regurgitated from the same talking points that Rand Paul et al get theirs from. No source has all the data, do your own due diligence is all I am saying.

---------

War and military conflict is frequently not the answer and almost never the only or first answer. It is important to note, however, that sometimes it is.


Understood. I was attempting to show the interconnectedness of it all. Demonstrate that no one event occurs in a vacuum.
Sources? Links?
Me or him?
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      12-21-2018, 09:28 PM   #95
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Him. You know what you are talking about.....most of the time!
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      12-21-2018, 10:35 PM   #96
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Came across this. Are the wars in Syria and Afghanistan being privatized hence the troop draw downs in both?

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/y...we-are-coming/
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      12-22-2018, 08:53 AM   #97
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Payback for the payback for the payback....and round and around we go!
Sadly this is commonplace... Even in the US.
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      12-22-2018, 09:13 AM   #98
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Random thoughts pertaining to this thread...

1. Long before Trump was elected POTUS he has been critical of never ending military operations. IMO this move in Syria isn't really surprising at all. It's very amusing to now hear anti-war Democrats argue that we should remain in Syria "just in case."

2. As much of a hawk as I am... and as much as I wasn't a fan of President Obama... Syria was one issue I actually agreed with him on. I didn't see the value of removing al-Assad then, and I don't see it now.

3. Sadly the Kurds get the short end of the stick, but Turkey hates them and Turkey is immensely more important strategically.

4. POTUS asked Mattis to resign. I support the resignation of any member of the administration not comfortable with supporting the President's initiatives. Know your place. Nobody is handcuffed to their position. If you're unhappy then the right thing to do is leave.

5. Mattis isn't irreplaceable.
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      12-22-2018, 10:50 AM   #99
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I'm very aware of the history. Then what should we have done? Gone in and made it more of a failed state and left? Not gone in and left the Taliban and Al Qaeda alone? Should we do what I suggested in my last post? Please enlighten us military genius/historian.
And tell me one country that we went in and didn't make it worse? We fail in every possible way we can, we only see our vew and that the problem with USA.
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      12-22-2018, 10:54 AM   #100
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No that's our strength. We dont need to be pussy ass bitches worried about how to accommodate everyone elses feeling and views, we have a job to do based on our position in the world and the rest of the world doesnt get to vote in our democracy.
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      12-22-2018, 01:18 PM   #101
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I'm very aware of the history. Then what should we have done? Gone in and made it more of a failed state and left? Not gone in and left the Taliban and Al Qaeda alone? Should we do what I suggested in my last post? Please enlighten us military genius/historian.
And tell me one country that we went in and didn't make it worse? We fail in every possible way we can, we only see our vew and that the problem with USA.
Germany? Japan?
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      12-22-2018, 01:22 PM   #102
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Roma_335i View Post
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I'm very aware of the history. Then what should we have done? Gone in and made it more of a failed state and left? Not gone in and left the Taliban and Al Qaeda alone? Should we do what I suggested in my last post? Please enlighten us military genius/historian.
And tell me one country that we went in and didn't make it worse? We fail in every possible way we can, we only see our vew and that the problem with USA.
Germany? Japan?
+Italy, France, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Grenada, Panama

Iraq, yeah, we fucked up Iraq bad
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      12-22-2018, 01:23 PM   #103
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I'm very aware of the history. Then what should we have done? Gone in and made it more of a failed state and left? Not gone in and left the Taliban and Al Qaeda alone? Should we do what I suggested in my last post? Please enlighten us military genius/historian.
And tell me one country that we went in and didn't make it worse? We fail in every possible way we can, we only see our vew and that the problem with USA.
When those towers went down and the dust settled, the view was crystal clear. You want to live in an America that does not respond?

Curious, why don't you answer his questions?

The world knows our military is engaging with one hand behind their backs.
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      12-22-2018, 03:18 PM   #104
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And tell me one country that we went in and didn't make it worse? We fail in every possible way we can, we only see our vew and that the problem with USA.
Afghanistan is much better off in the areas under US/coalition control than it was under the Taliban. You said one so Iíll leave it simple.
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      12-22-2018, 05:25 PM   #105
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And tell me one country that we went in and didn't make it worse? We fail in every possible way we can, we only see our vew and that the problem with USA.
Afghanistan is much better off in the areas under US/coalition control than it was under the Taliban. You said one so I’ll leave it simple.
Before the US came in, the women were not virtually slaves, they were slaves.
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      12-22-2018, 05:26 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
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I'm very aware of the history. Then what should we have done? Gone in and made it more of a failed state and left? Not gone in and left the Taliban and Al Qaeda alone? Should we do what I suggested in my last post? Please enlighten us military genius/historian.
And tell me one country that we went in and didn't make it worse? We fail in every possible way we can, we only see our vew and that the problem with USA.
Germany? Japan?
+Italy, France, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Grenada, Panama

Iraq, yeah, we fucked up Iraq bad
Fucking up Iraq was more on Rumsfield post war with the actual war.
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      12-22-2018, 06:08 PM   #107
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Before the US came in, the women were not virtually slaves, they were slaves.
And before Libya was bombed by the US good luck finding a slave. Now thanks to Obama & Co. you can now head on down to the local open air slave market.
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      12-22-2018, 06:20 PM   #108
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Fucking up Iraq was more on Rumsfield post war with the actual war.
Exactly. Had the U.S. (after defeat) worked on integrating the IRAQ armed forces instead of driving them underground, things today would be so different. Biggest fuckup ever!!! Its possible Iran would be taken down. Its so clear-but not much discussed. Rumsfeld was a moron.

And I am a Republican.
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      12-22-2018, 06:45 PM   #109
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Fucking up Iraq was more on Rumsfield post war with the actual war.
Exactly. Had the U.S. (after defeat) worked on integrating the IRAQ armed forces instead of driving them underground, things today would be so different. Biggest fuckup ever!!! Its possible Iran would be taken down. Its so clear-but not much discussed. Rumsfeld was a moron.

And I am a Republican.
I've always felt that way. Based on the Bob Woodward book, following up by reading numerous other articles.
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      12-23-2018, 05:21 PM   #110
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During Mattis' first interview as Secretary of Defense on CBS's "Face the Nation," host John Dickerson asked Mattis, "What keeps you awake at night?"
Without missing a beat, Mattis replied, "Nothing. I keep other people awake at night."
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