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      01-07-2019, 06:13 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
But that's not how taxation works.

Taxation works off of percentages, not aggregate amounts.
This is the great fallacy. Do you pay in a percentage or do you write a check for an aggregate amount. It's the latter.

Do you pay more taxes than me? Probably not. I'm much older than you. My problem is not actually paying the taxes...it's the whole system. It needs to be trashed. The burden of compliance is too high which, in turn, means that the entire process is inefficient. usshelena725 has it completely right...we need a flat tax system with a negligible burden of compliance.

Getting a missive from the IRS saying you owe an extra 10K, 20K, 50K or 100K isn't a letter anyone should get and it's all about this BS system.
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      01-07-2019, 06:13 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by jpdchicago View Post
I would not mind making 10 Million a year and pay 70% in marginal taxes. 1st world problems...
Right!
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      01-07-2019, 06:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
So again, help me understand. If you make $100K and pay 20% income tax or you make $150K and pay 25% my math tells me the guy making $150K is paying more tax.
But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about $100k @ 20% and the guy making $150k @ 12% (effective tax rates).

That's because the guy at $150k is making it other ways than a payroll tax and is able to effectively pay less in taxes.

Or even if we both paid the same aggregate amount: $20k. We still paid the same in total number of taxes, yeah? So we're even? No. His effective tax rate is at 13.3%. He gets to keep more of his money than I do.
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      01-07-2019, 06:15 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
This is the great fallacy. Do you pay in a percentage or do you write a check for an aggregate amount. It's the latter.

Do you pay more taxes than me? Probably not. I'm much older than you. My problem is not actually paying the taxes...it's the whole system. It needs to be trashed. The burden of compliance is too high which, in turn, means that the entire process is inefficient. usshelena725 has it completely right...we need a flat tax system with a negligible burden of compliance.

Getting a missive from the IRS saying you owe an extra 10K, 20K, 50K or 100K isn't a letter anyone should get and it's all about this BS system.
No, it's not a fallacy. My aggregate amount is based off a PERCENTAGE.

I agree our system is too complex and that's why someone making more than me can effectively pay less in taxes. But a flat tax is not the way to do it. I've already stated why.

I think this article explains it well: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph.../#3eca3a1a5561
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      01-07-2019, 06:17 PM   #49
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10% income tax across the board, no matter how much or how little one earns. No deductions, no exemptions, no write-offs, no excuses. Every tax payer could fill out his tax return on 1/4 sheet of paper, about the same as paying a water bill. US Treasury would still make out OK, particularly after getting rid of about 90% of their work force, not to mention that tax payers would no longer need to to retain tax attorneys and CPA’s.

I know, the lobbyist’s would never allow this to happen. Just a thought I’ve had since my first paycheck got dinged 55 years ago.
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      01-07-2019, 06:19 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
the fact that about 49% of the population pay no income tax whatsoever.
Yeah, I actually think this is the biggest problem. I don't know if the 49% is exactly accurate, but I suspect it's pretty close.

As to why it's a problem? Well, that ~49% has no skin in the game. They are perfectly happy with spending OPM (other people's money). They are also perfectly okay with with increasing the amount of OPM that is paid into the system, as long as it remains OPM, and not their money. I suspect this is going to come to a head sometime in the next 20-40 years, and it's going to be ugly.

My solution? Everyone pays some nominal amount of income tax. I'm fine with it remaining a progressive tax (though certainly not at the levels of AOC), but I think the shared contribution should be spread out so that anyone who makes any amount of money via wages pays some sort of nominal minimum tax, no matter how many deductions or extenuating circumstances there are. I would say even a single 1% would be a fair amount for the people earning a very low wage. This would certainly not alleviate the national debt/deficit in any meaningful way, and the processing cost might be more than the money brought in for those very low wage earners, but it would give everyone some sort of skin in the game, something which is sorely lacking right now.
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      01-07-2019, 06:20 PM   #51
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No, it's not a fallacy. My aggregate amount is based off a PERCENTAGE.

I agree our system is too complex and that's why someone making more than me can effectively pay less in taxes. But a flat tax is not the way to do it. I've already stated why.

I think this article explains it well: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph.../#3eca3a1a5561
And your check was in?
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      01-07-2019, 06:24 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
And your check was in?
Actually, I got a check back.

Which was calculated via a percentage.

It's like you don't know how any of this works.
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      01-07-2019, 06:26 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdchicago View Post
I would not mind making 10 Million a year and pay 70% in marginal taxes. 1st world problems.
I do not agree with her on everything but she gets the old guard scrambling...
Seriously? You work your ass off putting everything on the line, hiring hundreds of workers, buying or leasing real estate, pushing licensing and certifications and at some point you're like, " sure, take all my hard earned money". If wealth is what you desire in this world, you should be able to get it in this country. Even though I pay relatively low taxes, I do support a flat tax. It would impact me directly, but our country needs people who can understand what sacrifice for the greater good is. If you make $10k/ year and pay a 20% flat tax, you're not going to take home just $8,000. Your food stamps, your childcare, your reduced education expenses, your healthcare are all worth way more than what you are contributing.
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      01-07-2019, 06:27 PM   #54
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You people do realize that just because someone might not pay income tax (or at a really low rate), they still pay taxes, right?

Right?
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      01-07-2019, 06:30 PM   #55
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This conversation is about income taxes.
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      01-07-2019, 06:31 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
You people do realize that just because someone might not pay income tax (or at a really low rate), they still pay taxes, right?

Right?
Yes, they pay other taxes, well aware of that, thanks though, for the basic civics lesson.
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      01-07-2019, 06:32 PM   #57
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When you're arguing about having skin in the game, paying taxes is paying taxes.

No one in this country doesn't pay some sort of taxes. Hell, even illegal immigrants pay taxes.
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      01-07-2019, 06:33 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
When you're arguing about having skin in the game, paying taxes is paying taxes.

No one in this country doesn't pay some sort of taxes. Hell, even illegal immigrants pay taxes.
No, it's not the same. Many (most) of the people arguing for higher income taxes pay no income taxes in the first place. And that's just flat out wrong. They have no skin in the game, or at least the income tax game.
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      01-07-2019, 06:34 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Actually, I got a check back.

Which was calculated via a percentage.

It's like you don't know how any of this works.
I know exactly how it works and my own personal burden of compliance is well over $7K per year. It's ridiculous.

And if you're in the, "I got a check back crowd", you aren't sophisticated enough to have this conversation. You just made a loan to the government at 0% interest and have 2 additional losses from the aforementioned loan.


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      01-07-2019, 06:35 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about $100k @ 20% and the guy making $150k @ 12% (effective tax rates).

That's because the guy at $150k is making it other ways than a payroll tax and is able to effectively pay less in taxes.

Or even if we both paid the same aggregate amount: $20k. We still paid the same in total number of taxes, yeah? So we're even? No. His effective tax rate is at 13.3%. He gets to keep more of his money than I do.
The world I worked in everyone paid payroll tax at source, so the more you made the more you paid. I suspect the majority of the US and Canada works that way. The folks who get paid or taxed differently aren't the norm (at least I don't believe they are), I think this is where a flat tax rate might work better.
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      01-07-2019, 06:35 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
I know exactly how it works and my own personal burden of compliance is well over $7K per year. It's ridiculous.
Sounds like you need some write offs
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      01-07-2019, 06:36 PM   #62
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Sounds like you need some write offs
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      01-07-2019, 06:37 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
The world I worked in everyone paid payroll tax at source, so the more you made the more you paid. I suspect the majority of the US and Canada works that way. The folks who get paid or taxed differently aren't the norm (at least I don't believe they are), I think this is where a flat tax rate might work better.
That's great and all if all your income was via a payroll. But that's not how the 1% in the US get their money.

A flat tax wouldn't work in that case either.
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      01-07-2019, 06:37 PM   #64
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Sounds like you need some write offs
If it was only that easy.
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      01-07-2019, 06:38 PM   #65
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If it was only that easy.
One of the many reasons I'm not in the 1%
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      01-07-2019, 06:38 PM   #66
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Average taxes paid (percentage, rate) are interesting, but marginal tax rates are what influence behavior. If my next dollar of income is taxed at 40%, I think a lot about whether to earn it, defer it, or seek some other benefit, not taxed, in its place. At that rate it doesn’t make sense for my spouse to work unless her nominal wage is over $20/hr and likely over $30 because the net take home pay isn’t worth it to us. If the marginal rate is 70% and my income is high enough to face it (or even the higher intermediate brackets which would be part of this, too), then I’m moving income (assets that generate income) to tax havens, hiring attorneys and tax CPAs and taking advantage of every wrinkle in the tax code to avoid paying it. I’d probably set up a charitable foundation, as one example. Since most everyone in those brackets will do the same, tax revenue (dollars taken in by Gov’t) will not match the forecast and may even fall since the strategies can impact most or all income, not just that last, or marginal, dollar.

Worth remembering that when marginal rates were high, there were lots of “loopholes” (legal tax avoidance opportunities). Most of those were closed over time, so a high marginal rate today would likely see much more extreme response.
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