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      01-17-2019, 05:15 PM   #1
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LAUSD strike

Not sure how I feel about the strike, and some of the reasoning.

BUT, for a mob of strikers to show up at the private residence of board members, with bullhorns, takes this to a whole new level of inappropriate behavior.
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      01-17-2019, 05:23 PM   #2
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Let me tell you how I'd feel about it.... "Release the hounds!!!"
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      01-17-2019, 10:19 PM   #3
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Teacher unionization should be ban
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      01-17-2019, 10:37 PM   #4
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No one wants to follow the rules anymore. They just want to bully people into giving them what they want and they don’t care how they get it.
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      01-18-2019, 07:34 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Teacher unionization should be ban
You are saying you don't want people to have their right to organize? Why?
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      01-18-2019, 07:52 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
You are saying you don't want people to have their right to organize? Why?
I donít think they are saying that. I think itís more like they are saying they should know better and not encourage such bad behavior.
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      01-18-2019, 07:58 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by SumBMWGuy View Post
You are saying you don't want people to have their right to organize? Why?
Personally I don't care. What does piss me off is when these people feel they have the right to show up in front of someone's home and hold a protest.
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      01-18-2019, 08:36 AM   #8
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Unions are a free market reaction so it is what it is.

However, I'm conflicted on public unions and it's flat out wrong to show up to someone's personal residence and cause a scene.
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      01-18-2019, 10:15 AM   #9
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I don't see an issue with it. Educational board members are elected positions, nobody forced them into their position. Their policies affect other people. If you don't want to take personal responsibility for your public policies, don't hold a public office.
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      01-18-2019, 10:24 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by smrtypants44 View Post
I don't see an issue with it. Educational board members are elected positions, nobody forced them into their position. Their policies affect other people. If you don't want to take personal responsibility for your public policies, don't hold a public office.
Baloney.

My boss is responsible for his employees as well, due to whatever company policies are set by him or by HR.

I wouldn't be okay with employees of the company going down to the bosses house or the HR directors house and making a stink because they didn't get a raise.

I fail to see the difference here. No one is forcing anyone to work anywhere. If they feel they are underpaid, then that means they could earn more elsewhere. If so, then they should either accept the lower pay where they are because they don't want to move for various reasons or they should pack up, quit, and go move to another location or district that is paying what they feel they are worth.

If they cannot make more money elsewhere, then they are de-facto not being underpaid. I never fully understood why teachers whine so much about being underpaid anyway. I know many teachers in various locations across the country and they all seem to be paid commensurate with others with comparable education and experience. Perhaps slightly less, but they do work less hours as well and are government employees, which generally get paid slightly less than the private sector anyways.

Just my two cents.
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      01-18-2019, 11:27 AM   #11
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There was an old bumper sticker that ran something along the lines of : I hope one day schools will have all the money they need, and the Navy has to have a bake sale to buy another carrier. I would echo that.

Some of the demands of this group seem excessive. To include that you want other teachers to be limited (Charter schools) is downright unethical. I also beleive that the district has shown good-faith negotiations, in that when the State budget included an increase, the board came back with a new offer that closed some of that pay gap they are requesting.

To hear some on the picket line say "I'm doing this FOR THE KIDS" that's when my mind turns off to their lamentations.
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      01-18-2019, 11:39 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Because working is not a right. There is nothing in the constitution that says "I have the right to go to some random place, do stuff, and force someone to give me money."

I absolutely despise unions.

If you want more money, and I don't think you are worth it and say no - and you say, okay then - I'm not going to do any work until I get more money - I should be able to fire your punk ass immediately.

I know some are gonna say "but evil corporations will just crush the workers without unions". Bull. First, if I don't treat my workers right and pay them well, they will just quit and go over to the guy that does pay them well and I will be out of business. Second, if unions are needed to ensure that workers are treated fairly, then why are about 85% of all companies non-unionized? If it would be so terrible without unions, then why are the workers at more than 8 out of every 10 companies happy as clams without union representation?
Not all workplaces are the same. Broad generalizations of unionization aren't realistic. I've seen both the good and bad aspects of unionization and I've seen employers both treat their workers fair AND unfair, union or not. Each situation has to be analyzed based on their own circumstances. I would not dismiss the unionization of teachers just because unions have had a bad effect in other sectors. To do so would be to ignore where unionization has helped. It's simply not logical to be selective in this way with so much at stake.
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      01-18-2019, 11:56 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Baloney.

My boss is responsible for his employees as well, due to whatever company policies are set by him or by HR.

I wouldn't be okay with employees of the company going down to the bosses house or the HR directors house and making a stink because they didn't get a raise.
This is not just merely a raise. This is about an entire profession being ignored for decades. This is about the student's wellbeing being ignored and marginalized. This is about the forced implementation of a curriculum designed to satisfy standardized testing numbers instead of actually giving the students an education that can improves their lives. This affects teacher's home life, the student's home life, and thus the home life of future generations who have had to gone through an educational system that has its priorities in the wrong place. The fact that some board member/boss is unsympathetic to the core workforce because their own home life is improved by their disadvantage is a gross conflict of interest. Their privacy and right to a quiet dinner is super-ceded by the wellbeing of hundreds and thousands of teachers and student.

Quote:
I fail to see the difference here. No one is forcing anyone to work anywhere. If they feel they are underpaid, then that means they could earn more elsewhere.
If so, then they should either accept the lower pay where they are because they don't want to move for various reasons or they should pack up, quit, and go move to another location or district that is paying what they feel they are worth.
Unfortunately, the students who live in the district do not have the luxury of finding another school.

Quote:
If they cannot make more money elsewhere, then they are de-facto not being underpaid. I never fully understood why teachers whine so much about being underpaid anyway. I know many teachers in various locations across the country and they all seem to be paid commensurate with others with comparable education and experience. Perhaps slightly less, but they do work less hours as well and are government employees, which generally get paid slightly less than the private sector anyways.
LAUSD teacher pay is not commensurate with the working conditions in their districts. Not only that, but the level of education in many of the LAUSD schools are not on the same level as other districts in southern california. Don't believe me? Why do so many people in these districts chose private school over public schools? Why did I move over an hour from work just to get out of the LAUSD? This is a real problem. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it isn't real.
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      01-18-2019, 12:03 PM   #14
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Its funny that california will give tons of aid to illegals, the poor, etc. but wont give funding to the teachers isnt it.
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      01-18-2019, 12:20 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
Its funny that california will give tons of aid to illegals, the poor, etc. but wont give funding to the teachers isnt it.
In many of the school represented by LAUSD, these are NOT mutually exclusive. Creation of school classroom space has not kept up with the increase in the student population, and has resulted in those larger classroom sizes. Still not at the level where students have to share a desk again, but not ideal either.
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      01-18-2019, 12:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Good lord, nearly everything you stated is correct and can be directly attributed to the unions themselves.

Let us evaluate:

1) student's well being being ignored: Because the unions won't allow terrible teachers to be fired.

2) forced implementation of a curriculum designed to satisfy standardized testing: Because the unions won't allow terrible teachers to be fired, they convinced politicians to create these exams.

3) educational system that has its priorities in the wrong place: Yup, because it cares more about the unions than the students.

4) Their privacy and right to a quiet dinner is super-ceded: The right to privacy is in our constitution and cannot be superseded by anyone.

5) Unfortunately, the students who live in the district do not have the luxury of finding another school: Not sure how that has anything to do with my comment about being anti-union.

6) LAUSD teacher pay is not commensurate with the working conditions in their districts: Sure it is. I looked it up. The average public school teacher in LA makes about $64,761. The average registered nurse in LA makes about $68,865. The average accountant makes about $66,169. The average firefighter makes about $65,163. All these professions are comparable in education requirements and need. They are obviously being paid a respectable wage.

My responses in bold.


1) student's well being being ignored: Because the unions won't allow terrible teachers to be fired. Class sizes are larger than average in the LAUSD.
It is actually the lack of funding and teachers that allows for large class sizes.
Additionally, funding is largely determined by standardized testing results which means students are taught to pass the tests instead of subjects that are in their best interests.


2) forced implementation of a curriculum designed to satisfy standardized testing: Because the unions won't allow terrible teachers to be fired, they convinced politicians to create these exams. Funding is largely determined by standardized testing. This is the result of the No Child Left Behind act of 2001 under the Bush administration. I honestly think that it was a well intentioned act that has had an unfortunate negative impact in some districts.We can blame the House for passing this bill, the unions, or the teachers, no matter how little sense it makes, the point is that now that we have seen the negative impact of these test, we have to enact change.

3) educational system that has its priorities in the wrong place: Yup, because it cares more about the unions than the students.This is conjecture, not an argument. I can't tell you that you can't have an opinion, I can only argue facts.

4) Their privacy and right to a quiet dinner is super-ceded: The right to privacy is in our constitution and cannot be superseded by anyone. Their home address is public information.

5) Unfortunately, the students who live in the district do not have the luxury of finding another school: Not sure how that has anything to do with my comment about being anti-union.The strike is more than just about teacher jobs, it's about changes to the district and how it is funded and run. The teachers can get jobs elsewhere, but the students have little choice.

6) LAUSD teacher pay is not commensurate with the working conditions in their districts: Sure it is. I looked it up. The average public school teacher in LA makes about $64,761. The average registered nurse in LA makes about $68,865. The average accountant makes about $66,169. The average firefighter makes about $65,163. All these professions are comparable in education requirements and need. They are obviously being paid a respectable wage.Education requirements are not the only factors in determining pay. Need, working conditions, and demand also play a role. Conveniently, you have only listed those with about the same pay with the same level of education and need, but I make well into the six figures with no more education needed than that of a teacher. Why don't you throw my salary into the mix?
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      01-18-2019, 12:47 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
That is why I love my location. My daughter's school has 578 students and a student to teacher ratio of 14:1, which I find outstanding. It is also ranked as one of the best public schools in the entire nation. All of this, with no state income tax and obscenely low property taxes (property taxes are the primary source of revenue for the school district). My property taxes on my home last year were $585.

For reference, here is a photo of my house and street. This is what I am being taxed less than $600/yr on.
I love my location too. My son goes to private school. I live in the suburbs with a large house, 3 car garage, and I get paid well above my educational level. That doesn't mean other's problems aren't real.
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      01-18-2019, 01:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Baloney.

My boss is responsible for his employees as well, due to whatever company policies are set by him or by HR.

I wouldn't be okay with employees of the company going down to the bosses house or the HR directors house and making a stink because they didn't get a raise.

I fail to see the difference here. No one is forcing anyone to work anywhere. If they feel they are underpaid, then that means they could earn more elsewhere. If so, then they should either accept the lower pay where they are because they don't want to move for various reasons or they should pack up, quit, and go move to another location or district that is paying what they feel they are worth.

If they cannot make more money elsewhere, then they are de-facto not being underpaid. I never fully understood why teachers whine so much about being underpaid anyway. I know many teachers in various locations across the country and they all seem to be paid commensurate with others with comparable education and experience. Perhaps slightly less, but they do work less hours as well and are government employees, which generally get paid slightly less than the private sector anyways.

Just my two cents.

I don't see how your boss- an employee of a private company and a educational board member- a public official are equal? If public officials cant deal with their constituents then they shouldn't be public officials. Period. I don't care if its a board meeting, a restaurant, or the sidewalk in front of their houses.
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      01-18-2019, 01:25 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. My point stands in that I think unions are a joke and a drain on society.
Again, not all unions. I'm currently in a union, but I'm also a business owner. I see a lot of abuse of workers who are in my business who are not union. Maybe our union is different, because we can still get fired for poor performance. I'm grateful for the health care, overtime, pension, and vacation pay that the union negotiated for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
I think that any teacher is welcome to attempt to fight for better things for the kids, but as soon as they strike about not getting paid enough, I walk away from any argument they might have.
I've mentioned many many times that it's not just about pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
They chose that profession knowing full well what the pay was going to be, it isn't like it was a surprise.
That doesn't mean that it has to stay that way. Change doesn't happen in a vacuum. There are people who love teaching and would do it despite the pay. In fact, they already made that choice, which only strengthens the argument that the strike isn't just about pay. It's about how the funds are used and the untying of hands to let the kids learn what they need to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
I looked up the demands by the teachers and what the school board is offering, it can be summed up below:

Demand: Smaller class sizes
Board Offer: Lowering the maximum class sizes by 3, hire 1,200 teachers

Demand: Reductions in standardized testing
Board Offer: Cannot adjust due to federal requirements

Demand: 6.5% raise, retroactive for the last school year
Board Offer: 6 percent raise, spread out over two years.

Demand: more nurses, librarians, and academic counselors
Board Offer: Hiring at least one librarian and more academic counselors.

Those responses are pretty darn close to what the unions asked for. Union leaders rejected the offer on Friday, calling it ďwoefully inadequate.Ē As such, they are going to strike. This isn't about 'the students' and everyone knows it.

FWIW, I agree with you on the No Child Left Behind act. I believe it was done in good heart but it didn't turn out the way it should have.
1) 3 is not enough, lets get real. 40+ students down to 37? What's the ratio at your daughter's school? 14:1?

2) Federal requirements are incentivized by funding. They want funding from the state to increase so that they rely less on federal funding and the reliance on standardized testing.

3) That MIGHT be fine if the board had budged more on the other issues.

4) I can't stress how understaffed the medical offices are in public schools. These are our children. We can't give them more than a band-aid because the school nurses are actually just secretaries. There is maybe ONE nurse for a sector of school and he/she is only doing health plans. There is no face-to-face nurse to patient interaction.

5) "Darn close" isn't a measurable unit. They came up short on ALL of the issues. I don't know about you, but when I'm negotiating a contract, I don't aim for "darn close". "Darm close" is the loser's way of making themselves feel better about conceding almost all their conditions.
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      01-18-2019, 02:00 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
They chose that profession knowing full well what the pay was going to be, it isn't like it was a surprise.
Exactly.
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      01-18-2019, 02:00 PM   #21
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1) 3 is not enough, lets get real. 40+ students down to 37? What's the ratio at your daughter's school? 14:1?
That doesn't resonate with the numbers I heard from the mouth of a teacher on the picket line. She had 27 3rd graders, and the maximum was supposed to be 24. They were negotiating for 21.

Now, in a room with 27 3rd graders, I have extreme sympathy for a single adult. I don't know for certain in LAUSD, but up in the 'Nard we'd try very hard to add an Aide into that environment, for "crowd control" as opposed to actual teaching. LAUSD does have a number of aides, since many of them are crossing the line to provide that crowd control now.
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      01-18-2019, 02:04 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
Its funny that california will give tons of aid to illegals, the poor, etc. but wont give funding to the teachers isnt it.
It's actually not because they are being altruistic. It's fiscally prudent to support people living in your community (once they are there).
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