[Paladin1]

Something else that's being sort of universally repeated and becoming redundant in EV discussions and reviews. Most car designs are bilaterally symmetrical - mirror image. The rear of an EV - and almost all gasoline models - will have a matching right and left lower corner. Something has to go there unless the designer intends the undercarriage to be displayed - even if it's just a smooth piece of plastic (generally not a good look as far as styling). Usually it's a reflector, or actual lights. Or just a different shape or design. Bilaterally, in each corner. Is every, single element now to be interpreted as a "fake exhaust"? Maybe just because gasoline enthusiasts are used to seeing the open hole of an exhaust pipe there - even to the extent of outrage that they hid the exhaust! on gasoline cars with the exit port concealed. Maybe we should get over that....

[TXSchnee]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

You're missing the big point here. EVs are not going to stop climate change in its tracks or even make a dent in it. Passenger cars are a small piece of the pie for global CO2 emissions. EVs are cleaner for the lifecycle of a car yes, but they take years to even offset the CO2 emissions of a gas hybrid car.

So patting yourselves on the back thinking you are saving the environment with your 6000 lb iX is absolutely comical. Enjoy your car, but don't go around masquerading yourselves as superior moral and intellectual beings. If the climate is so important to you guys, then do something meaningful like biking, carpooling, using public transport, flying around the globe less, having fewer children, and living in a smaller home.

One thing that PHEV and BEV do is reduce air pollution locally, by quite a lot (remember how clean skies were in 2020 during the lockdown?). So even if passenger vehicles only account for 16.4% of total emissions in the US yearly, locally cleaner air is something that benefits me (and everyone else where I live) directly. I personally think most people would be happier with a PHEV, than going full electric, I have one and it is great (30mpg and 455hp) the BEV will be a commuter, saves time wasted getting gas and I have a solar panel system with Tesla Powerwalls so even if electricity goes out (as it did here in TX during the 2021 freeze) I will still have electricity. Repaying the carbon emissions from manufacturing the BEV really depends on yearly miles driven, but most people make it up within 2 years.

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by TXSchnee

One thing that PHEV and BEV do is reduce air pollution locally, by quite a lot (remember how clean skies were in 2020 during the lockdown?). So even if passenger vehicles only account for 16.4% of total emissions in the US yearly, locally cleaner air is something that benefits me (and everyone else where I live) directly. I personally think most people would be happier with a PHEV, than going full electric, I have one and it is great (30mpg and 455hp) the BEV will be a commuter, saves time wasted getting gas and I have a solar panel system with Tesla Powerwalls so even if electricity goes out (as it did here in TX during the 2021 freeze) I will still have electricity. Repaying the carbon emissions from manufacturing the BEV really depends on yearly miles driven, but most people make it up within 2 years.

Some people will contort their minds into a pretzel in order to justify driving ICE. They will use confirmation bias to seek out information that only agrees with and supports their misguided views. Usually this manipulated information comes from the fringe—pushed by political and special interests. Fear of change underpins it all and turns otherwise intelligent humans into propaganda force multipliers.

[Bird~Dawg]

Originally Posted by bluemark

Every time I look at it, I think Pontiac Aztec! And that's not a good thing.

I don't see the Aztec resemblance. Do you really see that or are you just comparing it to one of the fugliest vehicles of all time to be contentious? Troll??

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

You're missing the big point here. EVs are not going to stop climate change in its tracks or even make a dent in it. Passenger cars are a small piece of the pie for global CO2 emissions. EVs are cleaner for the lifecycle of a car yes, but they take years to even offset the CO2 emissions of a gas hybrid car.

So patting yourselves on the back thinking you are saving the environment with your 6000 lb iX is absolutely comical. Enjoy your car, but don't go around masquerading yourselves as superior moral and intellectual beings. If the climate is so important to you guys, then do something meaningful like biking, carpooling, using public transport, flying around the globe less, having fewer children, and living in a smaller home.

Hehe, I appreciate your southpark reference, it is priceless indeed, I also agree with your latter points on climate, they are valid. I think this is not the best platform for those kind of discussions though. This is an EV forum .

Your original post however, was on ICE vs EV in terms of production and now operating the vehicle. Owning an EV is simply greener; saying otherwise is pure misinformation not based on facts. This EV myth and several others are explained here https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

Furthermore, emissions offset on ICE vs EV in most studies are based on the country-specific energy production, which is not at all clean. If you take into account some people locally that produce 80% or more of their energy (including for EV) using solar panel systems, the offset is much quicker since solar energy production is as close to clean as it gets today.

[Quadruple VANOS]

Originally Posted by PABrian

Exorbitant price? Relative to what?

Average transaction price for a new car is ~$47k.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS

Average transaction price for a new car is ~$47k.

Which has no relationship to anything under discussion, and that price might be "exorbitant" for some. A more accurate comparison would be the average price for EVs, which according to KBB was about $63k in Jan 22. That includes all EVs of course, so not really a comparison of the luxury SUV sector, where the iX is probably mid-range. And could be considered "exorbitant" next to an i3.

[PABrian]

Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS

Average transaction price for a new car is ~$47k.

To add to what Paladin said, the average home sale price in Pennsylvania in 2021 was about $235k. Does that mean that a $450k house is exorbitantly expensive? Not in the slightest. It surely isn't among the cheaper options out there, but it is by no means exorbitant.

You have to compare the iX to its peers, not the market as a whole, or even the EV market as a whole. If you're considering the iX, you have to look at the Tesla Model X (~$32k more) and Audi e-tron S (~$2k more). Base vs base, the iX is the cheapest. Things might change when you start looking at equivalent builds between the BMW and Audi (I haven't really played that one out yet), but there is no situation in which any iX spec (50 or M60) is more expensive than a Model X.

Perspective is important.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by PABrian

To add to what Paladin said, the average home sale price in Pennsylvania in 2021 was about $235k. Does that mean that a $450k house is exorbitantly expensive? Not in the slightest. It surely isn't among the cheaper options out there, but it is by no means exorbitant.

You have to compare the iX to its peers, not the market as a whole, or even the EV market as a whole. If you're considering the iX, you have to look at the Tesla Model X (~$32k more) and Audi e-tron S (~$2k more). Base vs base, the iX is the cheapest. Things might change when you start looking at equivalent builds between the BMW and Audi (I haven't really played that one out yet), but there is no situation in which any iX spec (50 or M60) is more expensive than a Model X.

Perspective is important.

In fairness let's assume the implication is value vs price doesn't equate, I.e., not worth $90k. That was my reaction as well. I didn't think the X was worth it either. The reality is such an evaluation is almost exclusively an individualized decision and can't be applied objectively.

[PABrian]

Originally Posted by M3macster

In fairness let's assume the implication is value vs price doesn't equate, I.e., not worth $90k. That was my reaction as well. I didn't think the X was worth it either. The reality is such an evaluation is almost exclusively an individualized decision and can't be applied objectively.

As I mentioned, perspective is important. There's a difference between saying "the price of that car is exorbitant" and "I just don't think that car is worth $90k." It's also irrelevant to back up the former statement by citing the average transaction price of a new car. Is the pricing of the iX far out of reach for many? Of course, but cutting $20-30k off the price of the car would make it a completely different car and that wasn't the intent.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS

Average transaction price for a new car is ~$47k.

This argument holds water in two scenarios:

- All new cars are created equal, same everything.
- The only value of the car in the eyes of the buyer is the ability to take them from point A to point B.

If neither of those apply, then you shouldn't be comparing the sale price of the IX with the average sale price of cars.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

This argument holds water in two scenarios:

- All new cars are created equal, same everything.
- The only value of the car in the eyes of the buyer is the ability to take them from point A to point B.

If neither of those apply, then you shouldn't be comparing the sale price of the IX with the average sale price of cars.

UNLESS gas is $10/gallon and you drive 20,000 miles a year


Seriously though then the TCO would be comparable.
Assuming the $47k vehicle is 25 mpg and comparable charging/electrical cost is $2,000/year.
You'd save $30,000 over 5 years.

That's what the EV thing boils down to for most people - plus maybe some ease of use - who really wants to drive an EV vs ICE unless it makes compelling financial sense?

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by M3macster

Assuming the $47k vehicle is 25 mpg and comparable charging/electrical cost is $2,000/year.
You'd save $30,000 over 5 years.

Try more like $400/year to drive 20,000 miles/year in an EV. That's how much it cost to power my Model S here in Arizona.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

Try more like $400/year to drive 20,000 miles/year in an EV. That's how much it cost to power my Model S here in Arizona.

Ok make it 4 years payback then! Unless NPV sucks because of inflation . My cost here in Atlanta was about $500 for 12,000 miles/ year. But some places are higher, eh?

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by M3macster

Ok make it 4 years payback then! Unless NPV sucks because of inflation . My cost here in Atlanta was about $500 for 12,000 miles/ year. But some places are higher, eh?

If you take into account solar, it doesn't cost much to operate an EV. Panels on the roof are producing enough power for my electricity bill to be near $0 in average with one EV. I'm adding another EV and that will likely change but I'll make a decision whether or not to supplement the solar system as a result.

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

If you take into account solar, it doesn't cost much to operate an EV. Panels on the roof are producing enough power for my electricity bill to be near $0 in average with one EV.

Those with solar panels also tend to pay a lower rate when pulling power from the grid, so there's that as well.

[440i6MT]

Some very strong us vs. them, we are superior "they" are inferior vibes coming from certain individuals in this thread.

Unfortunate.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

If you take into account solar, it doesn't cost much to operate an EV. Panels on the roof are producing enough power for my electricity bill to be near $0 in average with one EV. I'm adding another EV and that will likely change but I'll make a decision whether or not to supplement the solar system as a result.

Isn't solar $20k-$60k with a 30 year payback? We can't do solar in my neighborhood. HOA restricts it. But we have extreme weather at times too, and our electricity is cheap. Or are you guys doing a smaller investment with good results?

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by M3macster

Isn't solar $20k-$60k with a 30 year payback? We can't do solar in my neighborhood. HOA restricts it. But we have extreme weather at times too, and our electricity is cheap. Or are you guys doing a smaller investment with good results?

Mine was about $10,000 out of pocket (smaller system 3.0kWh, but I live in a new home so very efficient), it saves me about $2800 or so a year in electricity, so the return on investment for me is less than 4 years. This is a conservative estimate, it will likely produce more, but typical ROI is 4-7 years here for a new solar system. We pay $0.50 to $0.54 per kWh during peak, $0.21 to $0.22 per kWh off peak. The system is expected to produce around 6500-7000 kWh in one year and let's say a $0.40 in average since most of the production is done during peak hours that puts me at $2600-$2800 in savings a year just to show you my math.

I find it crazy HOA restricts you from installing solar, in my city in California you're not legally allowed to build a new home without a solar system.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

Mine was about $10,000 out of pocket (smaller system 3.0kWh, but I live in a new home so very efficient), it saves me about $2800 or so a year in electricity, so the return on investment for me is less than 4 years. This is a conservative estimate, it will likely produce more, but typical ROI is 4-7 years here for a new solar system. We pay $0.50 to $0.54 per kWh during peak, $0.21 to $0.22 per kWh off peak. The system is expected to produce around 6500-7000 kWh in one year and let's say a $0.40 in average since most of the production is done during peak hours that puts me at $2600-$2800 in savings a year just to show you my math.

I find it crazy HOA restricts you from installing solar, in my city in California you're not legally allowed to build a new home without a solar system.

Our cost structure here is a fraction of that - $0.05 off peak and $0.20 on peak.

[cruzer666]

Originally Posted by M3macster

Our cost structure here is a fraction of that - $0.05 off peak and $0.20 on peak.

Hehe, well ROI would still be around 12 years for you, not terrible! But you're likely to have SOME service done on it and will likely push the ROI even more, maybe a total of 15 years. Given the life span of a solar system is 25-30 years, the benefits are less for your area. But that assumes the electricity costs won't go up. Still a good investment because even if you're not in your home for that long it will add value to your home.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by cruzer666

Hehe, well ROI would still be around 12 years for you, not terrible! But you're likely to have SOME service done on it and will likely push the ROI even more, maybe a total of 15 years. Given the life span of a solar system is 25-30 years, the benefits are less for your area. But that assumes the electricity costs won't go up. Still a good investment because even if you're not in your home for that long it will add value to your home.

IF the HOA would approve solar. But they won't. Which is insane.