[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

Many people - at least where I live - can't afford more than one car in a family.

EVs are still a luxury good.
Not everyone can afford one, or can justify prioritizing one in their limited family budget.

People who can barely afford 1 car should not be paying premium for an EV.

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

Of those who do, many commute quite a bit and even if they have two cars need both to be entirely usable. That is not the case for any EV due to the lack of infrastructure and the length of time it takes to charge one when it's empty.

Plus they are exponentially more expensive than a fuel-based vehicle,

Then there is the ~80% of the world's population that can't afford a car. Period.
And ~95% that is not covered by the EV charging infrastructure. EV is not a good fit for either population segment.

EV's are not exponentially more expensive - that is a gross exaggeration. But they do require roughly ~2x capital investment of what one would pay for an equivalent ICE car. Operations costs, per mile, are roughly 1/5th of gasoline power cars.

Depending on your cost of gasoline (stupid high in EU due to taxes), you may find it less costly to drive an EV than an ICE car. That is, IFF you can afford the price of EV entry, AND you live in the civilized part of the world covered by EV charging infrastructure. I know Germany fails on the last count

In 2015, EV sales were ~0.1% of total car sales in the world.
Before the decade is out, they may grow to ~1.0% of total sales.

EV sales may never hit more than 50% of the market, any more than luxury car sales of all kinds will never penetrate more than 50% of the car market.

Luxury car sales history and projections:
http://www.fatprophets.co.nz/Member%...650605F0D.ashx

Overall car sales history and projections:
https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/...0105190008.jpg

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

I'm not assuming anything. Please work on your reading comprehension. I don't care whether you have a bike at home attached to a dyno and create your electricity that way. Fact is, in 99% of the cases the electricity where people charge their EV does come from fossil fuels. And that even in Germany where the government, see above, is plastering every conceivable landscape with windmills. This is called statistics. What you are doing is applying your own situation to everyone else's. That's called something else but I'm too polite to actually say it.

Actually, that's false.

In 2014, in the US, 66.2% of the electricity was generated from fossil fuels (oil, coal, gas).
Across the world, it's 67.5% from fossil fuels way back in 2009.

I'm happy you are familiar with statistics.
Now lets introduce you to the concept of googling:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...on_By_Type.png




Try taking it easy next time you disagree with something you see on the internet!


a

[evanevery]

EV's are not terribly expensive. That's a myth. There are several major manufacturers producing real road-ready (not neighborhood) EV's for under $30K. This includes Mitsubishi, Smart, Ford and Nissan. And that's before the 7,500 tax credit (in the U.S).

The availability of the charging infrastructure is also not particularly relevant. Over 80% of owners charge their cars at home overnight and are in no way dependent on any charging infrastructure. (http://cleantechnica.com/2015/11/01/...oth-available/) They just plug-in at home.

...and, if you are unhappy about what form of power generation is used in your neighborhood then you should be taking that up locally with legislators and other consumers. To say that an EV is not a good solution because it ALSO burns fossil fuels (upstream) is at worst a wash. However, an EV, unlike a gasoline powered car, is capable of running on many more "source" fuels. You can run it on Geothermal, Wind, Solar, Nuclear, Hydro, etc. You simply don't have any such possibility with a standard car. So, moving you power choice further up stream gives you far more choices (and higher efficiency) than trying to generate the power locally in the vehicle. If you are unhappy how you neighborhood gets power, then that's a different battle...

2 person households in the US have an average of 1.98 cars. (http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/ri...figure_01.html) With three or more people the average number of cars only increases... As the range of EV's gets higher and higher, it is becoming more and more likely that an EV will be able to meet the daily needs of at least one of the drivers.

EV's are also a lot more reliable and require less maintenance than an ICE powered vehicle. No gas, no oil, no air filters, no oil filters, no catalytic converters, no transmission, no carbon/soot/oxydizing chemicals from all the controlled explosions in the engine. Much less stuff to break and require maintenance.

There is no need to hate EV's. They are quiet, clean, and fun vehicles. ...and I really great for not having to stop at any gas stations. (Most of the time I don't even know what the current price of gas is..). Maybe the model doesn't work for you (yet), and that's unfortunate, but that doesn't mean it won't very, very, soon.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by afadeev

EVs are still a luxury good.
Not everyone can afford one, or can justify prioritizing one in their limited family budget.

Good to see you agree with me.

Originally Posted by afadeev

People who can barely afford 1 car should not be paying premium for an EV.

Even people who can easily afford one or even two cars shouldn't buy one. It's simply impractical and bad value for money.

Originally Posted by afadeev

And ~95% that is not covered by the EV charging infrastructure.

I think that is optimistic. I would say in Europe it is 99%. And even if you have some charging stations, they either don't work or have the wrong adapter.

Originally Posted by afadeev

Operations costs, per mile, are roughly 1/5th of gasoline power cars.

That's a myth. Electricity prices in Europe are rather high, in particular in Germany due to the idiotic conversion to wind power. If you do have to pay for charging (and only that makes sense to calculate), EVs are usually not cheaper and sometimes even more expensive if you compare the electricity costs to fuel prices. Then, if you're honest and factor in the far higher depreciation costs and uncertainties in terms of reliability, resale value and battery lifetime, EVs are actually much more expensive.

Originally Posted by afadeev

Depending on your cost of gasoline (stupid high in EU due to taxes), you may find it less costly to drive an EV than an ICE car. That is, IF you can afford the price of EV entry, AND you live in the civilized part of the world covered by EV charging infrastructure. I know Germany fails on the last count

Unfortunately that is not so. There is no charging infrastructure to speak of anywhere in Europe. Sure, if you're commuting only and have a nice employer who installs these, plus you invest into a charging station at home you can use your EV for these runs. That is still a very, very long shot from any sort of usable mobility option which you have with a fuel powered car.

Originally Posted by afadeev

In 2015, EV sales were ~0.1% of total car sales in the world.
Before the decade is out, they may grow to ~1.0% of total sales.

I don't think so. These were the predictions of a few years ago. Now these may come to pass at the end of the next decade.

Which means they are utterly insignificant. And in terms of investment into research, development and new infrastructure an economical disaster, steered by an inept and incompetent political movement. EVs are not wanted, not needed and yet billions get spent on their development. It's a technological dead end. In my opinion, of course.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

Even people who can easily afford one or even two cars shouldn't buy one. It's simply impractical and bad value for money.

Prove it!

Run the #s for me for a person driving 20,000 miles/year on ICE vs. EV cars (assuming range and re-charging are not a constraint, 0.12 cent per KWh and $3.00 per gallon of premium gas).

Your turn to stop jumping to the conclusions and crunch the math!

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

That's a myth. Electricity prices in Europe are rather high, in particular in Germany due to the idiotic conversion to wind power. If you do have to pay for charging (and only that makes sense to calculate), EVs are usually not cheaper and sometimes even more expensive if you compare the electricity costs to fuel prices. Then, if you're honest and factor in the far higher depreciation costs and uncertainties in terms of reliability, resale value and battery lifetime, EVs are actually much more expensive.

Bullshit.
Read above.

Do the math, show us that you can count, not only pontificate!

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

in terms of investment into research, development and new infrastructure an economical disaster, steered by an inept and incompetent political movement. EVs are not wanted, not needed and yet billions get spent on their development. It's a technological dead end. In my opinion, of course.

Forget about backward socialist Europe.
Think bigger.

In the US, investment capital is free to be steered by people betting on business opportunities (google "capitalism").

Plenty have put their money where they mouths are, and invested into EV start-ups. Some failed (for various reasons: Fisker Karma), some are succeeding famously (Tesla).

Obviously, Tesla and other EV buyers disagree with you.


So do TSLA investors, of whom Mercedes is one, BTW.


But yeah, you probably know better than all of them ...


a

[evanevery]

I expect that many of the horse-riding population had much the same fears/arguments when the gasoline powered car was first introduced...

However, if you want to bone up on your EV hating dogma, here are a couple of links to ensure you have all the key points covered:

http://www.plugincars.com/ev-haters-...rs-107560.html

http://www.plugincars.com/ev-haters-...-2-107607.html

http://www.plugincars.com/ev-haters-...er-107717.html

[-c-]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I expect that many of the horse-riding population had much the same fears/arguments when the gasoline powered car was first introduced...

However, if you want to bone up on your EV hating dogma, here are a couple of links to ensure you have all the key points covered:

http://www.plugincars.com/ev-haters-...rs-107560.html

http://www.plugincars.com/ev-haters-...-2-107607.html

http://www.plugincars.com/ev-haters-...er-107717.html

Lol you made me think of back to the future when Doc was talking to the Cowboys at the bar.....

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

Good to see you agree with me.

Even people who can easily afford one or even two cars shouldn't buy one. It's simply impractical and bad value for money.

I think that is optimistic. I would say in Europe it is 99%. And even if you have some charging stations, they either don't work or have the wrong adapter.

That's a myth. Electricity prices in Europe are rather high, in particular in Germany due to the idiotic conversion to wind power. If you do have to pay for charging (and only that makes sense to calculate), EVs are usually not cheaper and sometimes even more expensive if you compare the electricity costs to fuel prices. Then, if you're honest and factor in the far higher depreciation costs and uncertainties in terms of reliability, resale value and battery lifetime, EVs are actually much more expensive.

Unfortunately that is not so. There is no charging infrastructure to speak of anywhere in Europe. Sure, if you're commuting only and have a nice employer who installs these, plus you invest into a charging station at home you can use your EV for these runs. That is still a very, very long shot from any sort of usable mobility option which you have with a fuel powered car.

I don't think so. These were the predictions of a few years ago. Now these may come to pass at the end of the next decade.

Which means they are utterly insignificant. And in terms of investment into research, development and new infrastructure an economical disaster, steered by an inept and incompetent political movement. EVs are not wanted, not needed and yet billions get spent on their development. It's a technological dead end. In my opinion, of course.

You sound like the guy who said "these here tarnation auto-mo-bilios are never gonna amount to anything. I mean, just look at how expensive they are compared to a good horse! And where you gonna refuel em? Heck, there isn't a gasoline station from here to Omaha! And you need roads! I can drive my horse anywhere, get it some hay and water and I'm good to go!"

Gotta start somewhere. Are they perfect? Nope. Are they for everyone? Nope. Do people buy them to show off? Yup. Are they an evolving technology, with people trying different technologies to see which will stick? Yup.

In the same way the internal combustion engine powered automobile had a long gestation period (really at least 40 plus years) so too will the modern electric car.

So yes, your points have validity. But keep an open mind and don't be so absolute.

[-c-]

I for one love my EV. And since we bought it it's changed our mind so much we want to add another to the stable,

As far as energy footprint I pay a premium for solar energy from where I live so no carbon footprint added their.

My cost per kilowatt HR is a little over 7 cents so my electric bill went up about 30 dollars a month with heavy driving as the car is never depleted to 0, With my 135is I was spending 240 a month in fuel so on average I'm saving 200 a month from my last car. Our x5 is a gas gobbler so cutting that out will also be nice.

The car will never rust or corrode so it will look nice for ages, it was designed from the ground up as an EV so the premium doesn't quite work with the i3 like a golf or smart car as their are cheaper versions of the car, it's got carbon and cool materials and that comes with a premium price regardless if it's EV or not.

And with all the incentives and price reductions from the dealer my fully loaded i3 was priced that of a well optioned Mini Cooper, What's not to love! Plus both my downtown areas have free charging and premium parking spaces for EV's so we don't have to go round and round like the rest of the people fighting over parking.

That may change with 500k tesla 3's running around but I'm enjoying it now.

Design - Love it ! It's unlike anything I see on the road everyday, it's fresh, it's cool to see driving down the road and happy it doesn't look like every other BMW made. It was shocking at first and wasn't sure of the design but the more I looked at it and drive it I fell in love with the car it's great regardless what people think I love the car and that is all that matters!

I really think it talks to the younger generation as they crawl all over it and act like its the coolest thing, just it's priced out of their range so the used market might be the best bet.

I still remember the first generation z4 all the BMW fans where out calling it hideous and the end of BMW, I still think the z4 coupe and vert has aged so well it still looks great and is timeless as far as modern cars go.

I love the strong reaction the car brings whether it's negative or positive it gets an emotional response which says a lot as many cars now are just emotionless designs of the month. I think many people think it's pretty cool and many think it's strange looking as they have nothing to compare it to, can't say it looks like anything else on the road and I respect that. Could give a rats patute of what people think of the car as it fits my lifestyle perfectly!

This car I can say will last me 20 years and when the batteries need replacing I'll feel good that they will have a second life in a home solar system or wind turbine vs a land fill, and I'll enjoy the cars second life with greater range as this may be the last daily driver I will likely have to ever buy again.

[Kiwi]

I have a 2 day test drive starting later today and I'm so unsure of buying. The i3 is expensive and New Zealand even with a 10k NZ price drop on the 2017. We get no purchase price cash back subside.

The advantages we have being able to use bus only lanes and all carpool lanes allowing driver driver only this being the main reason for buying the i3. Their's also a saving of $600 per year road user tax up to 2021 or until 65,000 EV's on the road.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

I have a 2 day test drive starting later today and I'm so unsure of buying. The i3 is expensive and New Zealand even with a 10k NZ price drop on the 2017. We get no purchase price cash back subside.

The advantages we have being able to use bus only lanes and all carpool lanes allowing driver driver only this being the main reason for buying the i3. Their's also a saving of $600 per year road user tax up to 2021 or until 65,000 EV's on the road.

Not sure what your gas bill is like over their but I had an annual savings of over 2000 dollars that I don't burn anymore on fuel! that's over 10g's in 5 years! That so rocks!

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

Good to see you agree with me.

Even people who can easily afford one or even two cars shouldn't buy one. It's simply impractical and bad value for money.

I think that is optimistic. I would say in Europe it is 99%. And even if you have some charging stations, they either don't work or have the wrong adapter.

That's a myth. Electricity prices in Europe are rather high, in particular in Germany due to the idiotic conversion to wind power. If you do have to pay for charging (and only that makes sense to calculate), EVs are usually not cheaper and sometimes even more expensive if you compare the electricity costs to fuel prices. Then, if you're honest and factor in the far higher depreciation costs and uncertainties in terms of reliability, resale value and battery lifetime, EVs are actually much more expensive.

Unfortunately that is not so. There is no charging infrastructure to speak of anywhere in Europe. Sure, if you're commuting only and have a nice employer who installs these, plus you invest into a charging station at home you can use your EV for these runs. That is still a very, very long shot from any sort of usable mobility option which you have with a fuel powered car.

I don't think so. These were the predictions of a few years ago. Now these may come to pass at the end of the next decade.

Which means they are utterly insignificant. And in terms of investment into research, development and new infrastructure an economical disaster, steered by an inept and incompetent political movement. EVs are not wanted, not needed and yet billions get spent on their development. It's a technological dead end. In my opinion, of course.

Maybe take you dead-end opinion and find another road.

Next /

[f30_Vincent]

OK srsly, I'm very excited for this car to be my next commuter, but as silly as it sounds it a non-starter for me if it doesn't have Apple CarPlay. I'll go with the Chevy Bolt instead for such a stupid reason.

[-c-]

Originally Posted by f30_Vincent

OK srsly, I'm very excited for this car to be my next commuter, but as silly as it sounds it a non-starter for me if it doesn't have Apple CarPlay. I'll go with the Chevy Bolt instead for such a stupid reason.

I think this is going to start being a fairly standard thing pretty soon in BMW's but I can get Siri to do pretty much anything I want with its current configuration, just holding down the voice command for a few seconds and then telling her what to do

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by f30_Vincent

OK srsly, I'm very excited for this car to be my next commuter, but as silly as it sounds it a non-starter for me if it doesn't have Apple CarPlay. I'll go with the Chevy Bolt instead for such a stupid reason.

You are right - bat crazy silly.

Are you shopping for a car, or a boombox, or both?




a

[3s-a-charm]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It is not just about the US.
And this one is on schedule and ready to be sold in the last quarter of the year not four years from now.

I've heard this argument from other EV manufacturers (GM is doing this with the upcoming Bolt) - "our car is ready now not in several years". It's a weak argument and they should focus on creating amazing electric cars rather than just bizarre designs (GM, Toyota FCV, Prius, etc) or designs that have very limited appeal like the i3.

What manufacturers need to figure out is that the first round of EV buyer was the ex-hippie green crowd but now there is a rapidly growing demographic who are more like a typical BMW driver who enjoys an amazing driving experience and EVs can deliver that.

I've had BMWs all my life (still have one) but my Tesla Model S (despite a few shortcomings - what car is perfect) is so much more fun to drive I can't imagine ever buying a non EV in the future and I don't want something that looks like it belongs in a sci-fi movie or screams "I drive an EV". I just want a nicely designed sedan or SUV that has the benefit of an amazing EV drivetrain and combines it with a luxurious interior I've grown to love in BMW.

In short... Make me a nice looking BMW i5 and I will likely be back to the brand in a heartbeat. Until then I will continue paying way too much for Teslas.

[TimeFor]

Well isn't this a lively discussion.

I love my i3 and drive it everyday. Long time BMW fan. Can afford to drive something fancier but I still choose the i3. I think the appeal for me is more about the quality of materials and the go-cart size/feel of it. Its just easy to drive. Never had any problems with 80 mile range but I'm happy to see BMW is increasing to over 100. I ordered a Model 3 like many of us here have done. Honestly though I doubt I'll actually take delivery of that car. I did the same thing with the Model X and S but when it finally came time to see the car in person I just couldn't see myself driving it. I think Tesla has an interior fit and finish issue. Its the little things that I think BMW does right with the i3 that makes it fun to drive. I can't say this is true with the i8 though. (center console storage flap design rant...). Perhaps I think the Tesla so far is just a little boring. Acknowledging though BMW has been heavily criticized for that same issue over the years. I think we can all agree the i3 interior is definitely not boring.

Perhaps depreciation will plummet like every other EV has done. Not to be unexpected as everyone is just figuring out these EV's. For me, the i3 evolution is so minor I'd more than likely buy-out my current i3 than lease a new one. I've got about 12 months until I make that decision for real though. Overall: I'm happy with the 2017 i3 changes.

- Time

[TimeFor]

Originally Posted by 3s-a-charm

In short... Make me a nice looking BMW i5 and I will likely be back to the brand in a heartbeat. Until then I will continue paying way too much for Teslas.

I'm with you on this but the rumors of the i5 concern me. Its projected at +110K car? Ehhhh, no they've lost me there just on the branding alone. i5 implies 5 series and I would expect something around 70-80k in-turn. That said, if they could take the F10/G30 and give it 100+ mile range on on EV with a little CF and eco friendly materials here and there I'd buy that for 80K no problem. I'd go to 90K with a 200+ mile range though not really needed for me since I charge at home.

[jmatero]

I have 2 cars. Ditched my E-Class for the i3. So, I can afford 2 cars... and between the $250/mo lease and free charging at work, I'm saving over $800/month (payment/gas/ins). So I'd have to say it's worth it for me.

[m5sdse63]

Hello all, I'll join this discussion too.

I am wondering where is BMW getting the charge time of 3.5 hours from for the current i3? I plugged it in today at 11:21am completely empty and it finished charging at 4:19pm on the BMW Level 2 charger. The 2017 model says it'll be 4.5 hours. If the current one takes about 5 hours to charge, how long will it take the 2017 model to do the same?

I am leasing my 2015 model for 24 months, and I have 14 more months left. I am happy I leased as I was unsure of the popularity of the car and how it would fare. My wife and I were discussing it the other day, as the car is her primary daily city driver, and the car fulfills probably good 95% of our daily car needs. So, overall, we are vastly satisfied with the car.

Now yes, it does have things that could be improved, but for the goal that this car was meant to achieve, I think it does just fine. We didn't get this car expecting M level performance or even regular 3 series.

I am happy BMW is moving forward making this car more useable range wise, but the intent of this car is city driving and it fulfills this role quite well. I am considering getting a 2017 i3 next September when the lease is due on my 2015 model, or maybe 2018 model will be available. However, we haven't ruled out a plug in X3 or X5 because we got used to the electrical propulsion quite well.

All in all, for what the i3 is meant to be, I think it serves its role reasonably well.