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      08-04-2009, 01:11 PM   #23
carve
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I'll keep it simple: after being taken prisoner, they're no longer combatants of any kind- they're prisoners. If they're determined to have been unlawful combatants, civil persecution must happen, which means they must be charged. If they're determined to have been lawful combatants, they're POWs. If we can't determine WHY we have them, or have them based on an accusation with no evidence, they should be released as expediently as possible...not after a six year wait without either charges or POW status.
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      08-04-2009, 01:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by carve View Post
I'll keep it simple: after being taken prisoner, they're no longer combatants of any kind- they're prisoners. If they're determined to have been unlawful combatants, civil persecution must happen, which means they must be charged. If they're determined to have been lawful combatants, they're POWs. If we can't determine WHY we have them, or have them based on an accusation with no evidence, they should be released as expediently as possible...not after a six year wait without either charges or POW status.
There is no basis for your assertion that civil prosecution is mandated for an unlawful combatant. What you are saying is that an unlawful combatant is entitled to a greater level of protections once captured than a lawful combatant. You have turned the Geneva Conventions on their head.
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      08-04-2009, 02:36 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by shpirate87 View Post
There is no basis for your assertion that civil prosecution is mandated for an unlawful combatant. What you are saying is that an unlawful combatant is entitled to a greater level of protections once captured than a lawful combatant. You have turned the Geneva Conventions on their head.
Greater protections? Maybe, but also much greater risk and responsibility, and no POW privledges. A soldier is not vulnerable to civil penalties. He can't be charged with murder on the battle field, for example. An illegal combatant can be.

from wikipedia...


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combatants in a war zone (are divided) into two classes: those in armies and organised militias and the like (lawful combatants), and those who are not. The critical distinction is that a "lawful combatant" cannot be held personally responsible for violations of civilian laws that are permissible under the laws and customs of war; and if captured, a lawful combatant has to be treated as a prisoner of war by the enemy Power under the conditions laid down in the Third Geneva Convention.

If there is any doubt about whether a detained alleged combatant is a "lawful combatant" then the combatant must be held as a prisoner of war until his or her status has been determined by "a competent tribunal".[12] If that tribunal rules that a combatant is an "unlawful combatant" then the person's status changes to that of a civilian which may give them some rights under the Fourth Geneva Convention
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      08-04-2009, 05:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by carve View Post
Greater protections? Maybe, but also much greater risk and responsibility, and no POW privledges. A soldier is not vulnerable to civil penalties. He can't be charged with murder on the battle field, for example. An illegal combatant can be..
You're right, the illegal combatant may be held personally responsible for combat actions and tried OR he can simply be held for the duration of the conflict.

Tell me, how do you see these civil prosecutions being played out? Are the 'defendants' entitled to Miranda warnings? Are soldiers responsible for the collection of physical & forensic evidence? Do they need to maintain a chain of custody of this evidence? Is the defendant entitled to confront his accuser? Can the defense call soldiers off the battlefield to give testimony in pre-trial hearings and at trial? What if the soldier(s) who were witnesses are no longer available (or dead)? Is the defense entitled to classified information that led to the defendants capture? Can he cross examine the intelligence operatives who collected or the analysts who analyzed the information?

I am afraid you do not appreciate the difference that being at war makes. There are any number of things we allow ourself to do while engaged in an armed conflict that we would not it the absence of such. Blowing up a bridge, dropping a bomb on a building, and yes, holding people without charging them with a crime are among those things.
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      08-04-2009, 08:32 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
Greater protections? Maybe, but also much greater risk and responsibility, and no POW privledges. A soldier is not vulnerable to civil penalties. He can't be charged with murder on the battle field, for example. An illegal combatant can be.

from wikipedia...
Ive read your posts in this thread. Thank god someone has half an f'ing brain. thank you.

Today is the day that I can get picked up off of the street, charged with "terrorism" and have zero right to due process despite being an american citizen. Since the day i was born.

George Bush is not a patriot. He is anything but. All you f'ers running around otherwise, have fun when you get picked up. What are you going to do? Show them that you are a card carrying republican? This will not save your ignorant ass.
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      08-05-2009, 12:21 AM   #28
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Ive read your posts in this thread. Thank god someone has half an f'ing brain. thank you.

Today is the day that I can get picked up off of the street, charged with "terrorism" and have zero right to due process despite being an american citizen. Since the day i was born.

George Bush is not a patriot. He is anything but. All you f'ers running around otherwise, have fun when you get picked up. What are you going to do? Show them that you are a card carrying republican? This will not save your ignorant ass.
Is this what explains the thousands of Americans who disappeared during the Bush Administration? Oh wait, thousands of Americans did not disappear during the Bush Administration, did they? Hmmm.... curious.

Maybe the definition of a patriot is someone who uses the powers entrusted to him responsibly. Tell me, was Lincoln a patriot?
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      08-05-2009, 01:02 AM   #29
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Who decides if he's guilty? The person who was in the seat next to him, or in that row? Do you think eyewitness accusations are enough to kill someone?

BTW- I think they should "lock him up and throw away the key". That's worse than the death penalty, has been shown to cost about the same, is easier, and is able to be reconsidered if new evidence is presented. The death penalty puts too much power in the hands of government, and is unecessary.
are you kidding me?!?!?!?! there was a bomb in his fucking shoe! he is a terrorist that would love to see to it that you and your family die. he doesnt deserve to live, let alone in a prison system that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep him alive, and guess who pays for that? we do, american taxpayers! for a man that was lighting a fuse to plastic explosives on his shoe, you better believe he is fucking guilty, and if you think he isn't guilty of trying to cause americans harm, and should be released, there is a serious flaw in your thinking. i have an extremely cheap way of justice for him, its called a 5.56 round, about $0.35 rather than 7-8 figures for the rest of his life
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      08-05-2009, 01:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by jibaholic101 View Post
are you kidding me?!?!?!?! there was a bomb in his fucking shoe! he is a terrorist that would love to see to it that you and your family die. he doesnt deserve to live, let alone in a prison system that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep him alive, and guess who pays for that? we do, american taxpayers! for a man that was lighting a fuse to plastic explosives on his shoe, you better believe he is fucking guilty, and if you think he isn't guilty of trying to cause americans harm, and should be released, there is a serious flaw in your thinking. i have an extremely cheap way of justice for him, its called a 5.56 round, about $0.35 rather than 7-8 figures for the rest of his life
now - now - be nice - the Shoe bomber deserves rights, and citizenship, yes give him some welfare, food stamps, free medical health plan and a government sponsered stimulus green job. then he will be nice and vote for the right people. and not kill you!
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      08-05-2009, 02:00 AM   #31
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now - now - be nice - the Shoe bomber deserves rights, and citizenship, yes give him some welfare, food stamps, free medical health plan and a government sponsered stimulus green job. then he will be nice and vote for the right people. and not kill you!
god thank you for showing the way, i see you are in SoCal, i think we should give him and his extended family guaranteed admission into UCLA at the illegal immigrant pricing of 4 figures!
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      08-05-2009, 01:20 PM   #32
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god thank you for showing the way, i see you are in SoCal, i think we should give him and his extended family guaranteed admission into UCLA at the illegal immigrant pricing of 4 figures!
LOL - oh yeah - and give him cash for his clunker too!
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