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      08-16-2017, 01:45 PM   #45
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So the statue of R. E Lee is stopping black people from advancing. Jesus H. Christ now I heard everything.
It's a monument to the man who took up arms against his country, after succession, to defend the right to own slaves.

It's more about what minorities were able to accomplish in spite of these public displays immortalizing a bygone era. Take it off of taxpayer land. Move them to a museum or privatize it.
I would like my tax dollars to not fund illegal aliens and welfare for those that can work. Am I a racist for that?

I don't give a shit about the confederate flag but it is part of our history. We can't allow the easily offended or political correctness police to erase history. Slavery is not coming back and many of my black friends have moved on from statues. We are humans and we are fucking things up now!

Lets go back to the Sanford & Son, All in the Family, Jeffersons, Good Times, Leave it to Beaver days! Have a laugh and take things less seriously.

Bottom line: Our country needs to toughen up again.
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      08-16-2017, 01:50 PM   #46
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From experience the main difference is that you don't get the few minutes of a warm butt.

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Btw, to the other thread: I tried to make the one poster to understand the error in his ways but it appears his mother applied the diapers in a way that cut thw correct flow of the discussed matter and directed it upwards. That is known in the mom circles as a permanently shitty kid syndrome. The condition is not fatal, but the only known cure requires a strict internet diet.
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      08-16-2017, 01:50 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by UglyBuzzard View Post
I would like my tax dollars to not fund illegal aliens and welfare for those that can work. Am I a racist for that?

I don't give a shit about the confederate flag but it is part of our history. We can't allow the easily offended or political correctness police to erase history. Slavery is not coming back and many of my black friends have moved on from statues. We are humans and we are fucking things up now!

Lars go back to the Sanford & Son, All in the Family, Jeffersons, Good Times, Leave it to Beaver days! Have a laugh and take things less seriously.

Bottom line: Our country needs to toughen up again.
You won't get argument from me on welfare, as for illegal aliens they pay more in taxes through false social security numbers than they take, but I digress. Point is, this problem is pretty easy to fix. So let's fix it, then we can move on to the next problem. You're right though, don't erase history, but let's not celebrate the low points through public monuments. Again, I say move it to a museum.
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      08-16-2017, 02:47 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
Well technically the founders of the is country can be branded as traitors as well since they where British subject and took up arms against the British.
Absolutely, but with a key difference:
You live in and are a citizen of the United States of America, the product of the Founding Fathers' "rebellion" (i.e., American Revolution) against the British Crown.
Great Britain eventually came to recognize the sovereignty of the USA and now they are allies.

Such did not happen with the CSA. It fought, it lost, and became extinct.
All citizens of the Confederacy became US citizens once again post-civil war.
You can't be a citizen of a country that doesn't exist.

I'm indifferent to the removal/preservation of Confederate monuments.
It's a touchy subject because everyone interprets these monuments differently. These types of clashes and differences over the meanings of monuments are not just unique to the US.
It's unfortunate that they have been politicized as of late, even to the point where 3-4 individuals have been arrested for rioting/property damage in North Carolina for taking matters into their own hands (taking down a Confederate statue).
I can't justify vandalism. They think they are heroes for doing so, but they are just vandalizing government property; that's not okay. If you want something gone, there is a democratic process in this country.
So yes, this is over statues...It's getting wild, folks.

Still, there's certainly a valid argument, in the context of US Citizens, that commemorating Confederate leaders effectively commemorates those who engaged in treason against their own country, the US of A.
One doesn't have to agree with that argument, but it's certainly valid.
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      08-16-2017, 03:00 PM   #49
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And they will be coming for all of them...Question is will you let them?
If they did - he, and you couldn't and wouldn't do shit about it.
When their movement find themselves suddenly aligned with open racists/afd people from Germany, you know they have a big problem

Bandwagoning white supremists from Germany aside, I do think care must be taken in evaluating the meaning of a monument and the historical context in which that person operated before willy nilly removing them.

Being reactionary with our shared American history is not smart. Many of these people were imperfect people living in imperfect times, but their contribution to our country cannot be ignored.

Both sides appear to be reactionary with some other people claiming that Robert E. Lee is suddenly an American hero on par with George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. The historical ignorance in that belief is laughable at best. But he did support reconstruction and did help in that regard which was very important after the war. His importance is not on the level of the founding fathers and took up against the U.S. so he does not need a national monument. If Virginians don't want to see him anymore that is that.

In the end the local residents where that monument resides have the final say, and carpetbaggers from Ohio mean nothing in regards to a decision made by Virginia residents. If Virginians want that statue gone, then it should be gone asap regardless of what some 20 year old from Ohio with a Dodge Challenger thinks let alone what a racist bmw marketer from Germany believes.

Pop quiz, what do those two have in common btw? Answer: both are entitled people who spend their lives on the Internet and have never done a day of actual work in their lives. But they both have a whole lot of opinions about people far away.

Back on topic, states rights and local preferences should trump all other factors in this matter. If residents of one state want to honor one person or another so be it. That is their land and their decision. Similarly, if those residents want a monument removed or otherwise moved that is also their decision. We should all support whatever the decision the local residents in Virginia want, so that we will have the same freedoms where we live.
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      08-16-2017, 03:31 PM   #50
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What about them?

You have to "talk" slow so these sub-humans understand. lol. Post is about confederate monuments and this guy just starts listing off random monuments.
He's like his president...I mean...the president
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      08-16-2017, 04:36 PM   #51
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What about the monuments in state parks? I'm not far from the Vicksburg civil war park and they have hundreds of monuments there, for both Union and Confederate sides. What about the parks themselves? What about monuments in graveyards? What about the confederate headstones there?
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      08-16-2017, 05:04 PM   #52
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      08-16-2017, 05:09 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
What about the monuments in state parks? I'm not far from the Vicksburg civil war park and they have hundreds of monuments there, for both Union and Confederate sides. What about the parks themselves? What about monuments in graveyards? What about the confederate headstones there?

Is this supposed to be a trick question. This isn't hard. Depends on the state park but mostly no. The park you describe has actual historical significance so yes. Yes to monuments and headstones in graveyards. That's where monuments to the dead belong even if I despise them.
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      08-16-2017, 05:19 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by maloo View Post
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Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
What about the monuments in state parks? I'm not far from the Vicksburg civil war park and they have hundreds of monuments there, for both Union and Confederate sides. What about the parks themselves? What about monuments in graveyards? What about the confederate headstones there?

Is this supposed to be a trick question. This isn't hard. Depends on the state park but mostly no. The park you describe has actual historical significance so yes. Yes to monuments and headstones in graveyards. That's where monuments to the dead belong even if I despise them.
Someone else a few posts back said that all of these monuments exist to celebrate slavery and nothing more or less. I just want to point out that it gets a little grey in places.

By the way, Robert E. Lee was opposed to the building of monuments for various reasons, one of them being that he thought it kept open "the sores of war."

"'I think it wiser," the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, 'not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered....'As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated,'Lee wrote of an 1866 proposal, 'my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; [and] of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour.'"

- Robert E. Lee
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      08-16-2017, 05:29 PM   #55
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There is a war memorial I have visited. Its in another country, but the message is clear. The memorial was built by the "losers" and it one of the most powerful monuments I have ever experienced. See the Hiroshima bomb memorial.
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      08-16-2017, 05:41 PM   #56
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Back on topic, states rights and local preferences should trump all other factors in this matter. If residents of one state want to honor one person or another so be it. That is their land and their decision. Similarly, if those residents want a monument removed or otherwise moved that is also their decision. We should all support whatever the decision the local residents in Virginia want, so that we will have the same freedoms where we live.
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      08-16-2017, 05:58 PM   #57
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There is a war memorial I have visited. Its in another country, but the message is clear. The memorial was built by the "losers" and it one of the most powerful monuments I have ever experienced. See the Hiroshima bomb memorial.
I think there is a qualitative distinction. The Hiroshima Peace Memorial honours victims in way that stirs us all emotionally and should compel mankind to never forget the horrors that were suffered. I would put the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial and Museum in a similar context. Vimy Ridge has always been exceptionally moving to me (obviously a Canadian perspective).

I also think it is one thing to honour the war's dead and Confederate gravestones or the Confederate soldiers memorialized in Gettysburg are historically relevant and appropriately contextual. There is a difference between a statue honouring two Confederate soldiers from Mississippi in the Gettysburg memorial and statues of Lee/Davis/Jackson/etc in city squares and parks. The former is designed to make us think about our history and the horror that is war and the latter is intended to rewrite that history with revisionist tones that seek to make the dishonourable motives of secession somehow honourable.
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      08-16-2017, 06:11 PM   #58
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Ok I'm convinced, let's tear em all down.

We should also go to Egypt and destroy all the pyramids. After all, those were built by slaves so no way those should escape our SJW wrath.

We also need to march on Europe and destroy all remnants of the Nazi death camps. Auschwitz, Dachau, we gotta level all that shit.

No need for history lessons as long as one single person is offended. Progress!
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      08-16-2017, 06:23 PM   #59
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I am just shocked anyone here on the left would be driving a German car... especially a VW / AUDI or Porsche... but hey BMW built engines for the Luftwaffe and Benz was the car that transformed Germany and was also used by many party members... but hey they are cars we like, so it's ok... right guys?
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      08-16-2017, 06:24 PM   #60
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Ok I'm convinced, let's tear em all down.

We should also go to Egypt and destroy all the pyramids. After all, those were built by slaves so no way those should escape our SJW wrath.

We also need to march on Europe and destroy all remnants of the Nazi death camps. Auschwitz, Dachau, we gotta level all that shit.

No need for history lessons as long as one single person is offended. Progress!
Don't forget the Great Wall that was all slave labor. Rome, burn all the ancient sites to the ground since they where built by slaves.
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      08-16-2017, 06:27 PM   #61
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I am just shocked anyone here on the left would be driving a German car... especially a VW / AUDI or Porsche... but hey BMW built engines for the Luftwaffe and Benz was the car that transformed Germany and was also used by many party members... but hey they are cars we like, so it's ok... right guys?
Stop wearing Adidas too. Adi was a pretty hard core Nazi and eventually his brother got fed up with him and formed his own company called Puma.
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      08-16-2017, 06:29 PM   #62
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Don't forget the Great Wall that was all slave labor. Rome, burn all the ancient sites to the ground since they where built by slaves.
I think a massive incorrect narrative in the USA is that somehow all slaves were black... that may have been true for the majority of the USA but not the rest of the world. It just so happens, most slaves in the USA came from either the African continent or the islands were the predominant color of people was Black. Egypt had white slaves... etc etc... this was true everywhere, Greece / Rome... but here its conveniently spun this way to make everything a racial issue as opposed to a free labor issue. Holy shit, if this type of behavior existed in Germany about sensitivity, the country would virtually have no industry.
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      08-16-2017, 06:35 PM   #63
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And I better not catch any of you bastards sporting wood for the new Mustangs. Henry Ford was a anti-Semite and Nazi sympathizer at one point.
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      08-16-2017, 06:38 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
I am just shocked anyone here on the left would be driving a German car... especially a VW / AUDI or Porsche... but hey BMW built engines for the Luftwaffe and Benz was the car that transformed Germany and was also used by many party members... but hey they are cars we like, so it's ok... right guys?
What an amazing point, and just an example of how my white privilege has absolutely corrupted me to the point of no return. LOOK AT THIS!!! Hitler was in a MERCEDES BENZ. They still make cars today, they're even leading the FORMULA 1 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP!! How can this racism be tolerated!!!!

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      08-16-2017, 06:39 PM   #65
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There is a war memorial I have visited. Its in another country, but the message is clear. The memorial was built by the "losers" and it one of the most powerful monuments I have ever experienced. See the Hiroshima bomb memorial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
I think there is a qualitative distinction. The Hiroshima Peace Memorial honours victims in way that stirs us all emotionally and should compel mankind to never forget the horrors that were suffered. I would put the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial and Museum in a similar context. Vimy Ridge has always been exceptionally moving to me (obviously a Canadian perspective).

I also think it is one thing to honour the war's dead and Confederate gravestones or the Confederate soldiers memorialized in Gettysburg are historically relevant and appropriately contextual. There is a difference between a statue honouring two Confederate soldiers from Mississippi in the Gettysburg memorial and statues of Lee/Davis/Jackson/etc in city squares and parks. The former is designed to make us think about our history and the horror that is war and the latter is intended to rewrite that history with revisionist tones that seek to make the dishonourable motives of secession somehow honourable.
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Ok I'm convinced, let's tear em all down.

We should also go to Egypt and destroy all the pyramids. After all, those were built by slaves so no way those should escape our SJW wrath.

We also need to march on Europe and destroy all remnants of the Nazi death camps. Auschwitz, Dachau, we gotta level all that shit.

No need for history lessons as long as one single person is offended. Progress!

The Hiroshima Memorial was built by the "losers" but it wasn't built to honor or glorify the atrocities and wrongdoings of Japan.

But unfortunately, Japan does have a memorial to honor its not-so-bright moments: the Yasukuni Shrine, which also honors war criminals from WWII.
It is very controversial in Asia, especially when Japanese Prime Ministers or members of the Japanese cabinet visit and "pay respects".

Can you imagine if Germany had a shrine/temple commemorating the SS?
Yeah, it's on that level.


Yes there are cemeteries, headstones, and memorials of the American Civil War throughout the US, and the concentration camps in Europe (Auschwitz, Dachau) and Asia (Unit 731) are preserved but they aren't there to glorify the deeds of any one man or ideology; they are there to present a factual history to posterity, something they can see with their own eyes, that therein lie a shameful period of history that hopefully won't be repeated.

Memorials and historical sites such as Auschwitz and Gettysburg exist to teach the next generation about worst of humanity, war.

Memorials such as Yasukuni Shrine, and the hypothetical SS/Nazi memorial serve to glorify and even justify, the worst of humanity.

There's a difference.
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      08-16-2017, 06:39 PM   #66
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I think a massive incorrect narrative in the USA is that somehow all slaves were black... that may have been true for the majority of the USA but not the rest of the world. It just so happens, most slaves in the USA came from either the African continent or the islands were the predominant color of people was Black. Egypt had white slaves... etc etc... this was true everywhere, Greece / Rome... but here its conveniently spun this way to make everything a racial issue as opposed to a free labor issue. Holy shit, if this type of behavior existed in Germany about sensitivity, the country would virtually have no industry.
Let's not forget who ended slavery in America in the first place, all those white folk privilege types. But I guess that doesn't count.
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