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      10-17-2021, 02:25 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
The TM3 dualotor uses two types.of motors. They still use rare earth materials in one.

https://insideevs.com/news/461811/vi...tor-explained/

But I'm trying to point out the Tesla isn't as far ahead as everyone thinks.

Because they label/mislabel FSD and Auto Pilot the assumption is that they lead.
The best product from Tesla is still TSLA, which is far less risky to own than Tesla.

Last edited by bavarianride; 10-17-2021 at 01:07 PM..
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      10-18-2021, 12:07 AM   #68
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Could be but according to this seems it has high safety ratings

"The Tesla Model 3 is the only electric car (not including SUVs) to earn a 2021 IIHS Top Safety Pick+. "

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...electric-cars/
I think BMW and Tesla doing well in safety tests are expected to keep up with industry standards.

What are missing from these tests are quantitative measurements of Tesla's L2 capabilities vs. others, e.g. how far can Tesla's camera-based systems can see compared to others with radar.
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      10-18-2021, 12:28 AM   #69
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
Could be but according to this seems it has high safety ratings

"The Tesla Model 3 is the only electric car (not including SUVs) to earn a 2021 IIHS Top Safety Pick+. "

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...electric-cars/
I think BMW and Tesla doing well in safety tests are expected to keep up with industry standards.

What are missing from these tests are quantitative measurements of Tesla's L2 capabilities vs. others, e.g. how far can Tesla's camera-based systems can see compared to others with radar.
That would be nice to know
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      10-18-2021, 12:30 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
The TM3 dualotor uses two types.of motors. They still use rare earth materials in one.

https://insideevs.com/news/461811/vi...tor-explained/

But I'm trying to point out the Tesla isn't as far ahead as everyone thinks.

Because they label/mislabel FSD and Auto Pilot the assumption is that they lead.
The best product from Tesla is still TSLA, which is far less risky to own than Tesla.


Yeah although lately it's been "on fire"
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      10-18-2021, 11:07 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
Could be but according to this seems it has high safety ratings

"The Tesla Model 3 is the only electric car (not including SUVs) to earn a 2021 IIHS Top Safety Pick+. "

https://www.motortrend.com/features/...electric-cars/
I think BMW and Tesla doing well in safety tests are expected to keep up with industry standards.

What are missing from these tests are quantitative measurements of Tesla's L2 capabilities vs. others, e.g. how far can Tesla's camera-based systems can see compared to others with radar.
With a vision only system, determination of following distance and calculation of speed differentials becomes challenging. This is why Cruise can be hands free on the freeway and Tesla cannot.

BMW also uses forward facing radar.
I trust combination/hybrid systems a lot more.
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      10-18-2021, 11:13 AM   #72
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I trust combination/hybrid systems a lot more.
I trust a system that doesn't suddenly stop for the moon low in the sky or drive into the side of a white truck it somehow didn't recognize. That system is still me, until I'm a lot older and less intact. Maybe then...
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      10-18-2021, 11:40 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I trust combination/hybrid systems a lot more.
I trust a system that doesn't suddenly stop for the moon low in the sky or drive into the side of a white truck it somehow didn't recognize. That system is still me, until I'm a lot older and less intact. Maybe then...
For the win!
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      10-20-2021, 08:53 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
It maybe the case that Tesla skips on safety to hit weight and range targets, and consumers should be aware of it.

The battery chemistry is not improving and thermal runaways are real, so informed consumers should carefully weight(no punt intended) the tradeoffs.
Baloney.

Tesla safety, outside of FSD crashing into cars, is fine. The car is fine in accidents. In fact, it's better than fine. it's excellent, and crash tests prove it.

Battery chemistry is improving.

Thermal runaways aren't any different than any other BEV. Last I checked, Tesla wasn't recalling all their cars for thermal runaways when left unattended. Ahem Chevy / LG.
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      10-20-2021, 09:01 AM   #75
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I just can't get pass the point that the i4m is heavier, slower, less range, more expensive than the M3P

I'll give you the whole quality thing, and the exterior looks the best of any EV

but I would expect the BMW to be quicker and above all, lighter than the Tesla if this is supposed to be the ultimate driving machine :

I'm ok with the premium if it performs better
I'm in a similar boat. If you've owned a Model 3, and you're not a rabid fanboy, you're likely smitten by the stuff that they do get right. And believe me, Tesla gets a LOT right with the Model 3. The drivetrain, driving experience, charging, interaction with the UI...it all just feels so much further ahead than any car on the market.

But then you have to put up with the sh!tty suspension, the low level of parts (not build) quality, some (or many) build quality issues, the lack of basic stuff working right (auto high beams and wipers are a disaster), glitchy electronics (hello spinning wheel of death audio player), etc. Like every other car out there, it's a compromise, but you can taste the future. Tesla does take some short cuts in parts quality and manufacturing, but when it comes to the actual driving components, they do not.

If you've owned, or do own, a modern luxury car, and you own a Model 3, some part of your brain is always screaming "come on BMW, come on Audi, GET THERE". Porsche is almost all the way there, but the Taycan feels heavy and is EXPENSIVE.

So then the i4 comes out and you notice that it weighs quite a bit. The ETron has the same problem. And that dulls the performance. Will it be enough to overcome the price and justify the much better interior? I'm looking forward to finding out.
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      10-20-2021, 11:18 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
It maybe the case that Tesla skips on safety to hit weight and range targets, and consumers should be aware of it.

The battery chemistry is not improving and thermal runaways are real, so informed consumers should carefully weight(no punt intended) the tradeoffs.
Baloney.

Tesla safety, outside of FSD crashing into cars, is fine. The car is fine in accidents. In fact, it's better than fine. it's excellent, and crash tests prove it.

Battery chemistry is improving.

Thermal runaways aren't any different than any other BEV. Last I checked, Tesla wasn't recalling all their cars for thermal runaways when left unattended. Ahem Chevy / LG.
As far as IIHS, Tesla is a safe car even in a roll over. Not worried about battery in any EV; even my Bolt.
But the Bolt ISS is LG Chem and could have been any company that buys LG Chem; one of the world's largest manufacturers of EV batteries.

My ICE 335i had an electrical fire and was totalled.

FSD and the build quality/components are my issues.

Battery chemistry on the whole is changing and it also looks like reliable solid state batteries are on the horizon. That will be a game changer for weight and energy density.
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      10-20-2021, 11:27 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pikcachu View Post
I just can't get pass the point that the i4m is heavier, slower, less range, more expensive than the M3P

I'll give you the whole quality thing, and the exterior looks the best of any EV

but I would expect the BMW to be quicker and above all, lighter than the Tesla if this is supposed to be the ultimate driving machine :

I'm ok with the premium if it performs better
I'm in a similar boat. If you've owned a Model 3, and you're not a rabid fanboy, you're likely smitten by the stuff that they do get right. And believe me, Tesla gets a LOT right with the Model 3. The drivetrain, driving experience, charging, interaction with the UI...it all just feels so much further ahead than any car on the market.

But then you have to put up with the sh!tty suspension, the low level of parts (not build) quality, some (or many) build quality issues, the lack of basic stuff working right (auto high beams and wipers are a disaster), glitchy electronics (hello spinning wheel of death audio player), etc. Like every other car out there, it's a compromise, but you can taste the future. Tesla does take some short cuts in parts quality and manufacturing, but when it comes to the actual driving components, they do not.

If you've owned, or do own, a modern luxury car, and you own a Model 3, some part of your brain is always screaming "come on BMW, come on Audi, GET THERE". Porsche is almost all the way there, but the Taycan feels heavy and is EXPENSIVE.

So then the i4 comes out and you notice that it weighs quite a bit. The ETron has the same problem. And that dulls the performance. Will it be enough to overcome the price and justify the much better interior? I'm looking forward to finding out.
I've been in multiple TM3s. I have owned BMWs for 30+ years and the TM3 just doesn't work for me.

I like the interior of my Chevy Bolt better than TM3.

I don't think the weight/range of the i40 M50 matters to me. I've never looked at a car and not bought it because it was a porker.

E30 M3 < E36 M3 < E90 335i. It's been a weight increase every time I've moved cars.

I just buy what I like. I also can't get past the way the TM3 looks. I prefer the ID.4 over the TM3. Definitely the i4.

So I'm just waiting here with my money so I can order my car. Nov 18.......... tick, tock, tick, tock...
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      10-20-2021, 11:54 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I've been in multiple TM3s. I have owned BMWs for 30+ years and the TM3 just doesn't work for me.

I like the interior of my Chevy Bolt better than TM3.

I don't think the weight/range of the i40 M50 matters to me. I've never looked at a car and not bought it because it was a porker.

E30 M3 < E36 M3 < E90 335i. It's been a weight increase every time I've moved cars.

I just buy what I like. I also can't get past the way the TM3 looks. I prefer the ID.4 over the TM3. Definitely the i4.

So I'm just waiting here with my money so I can order my car. Nov 18.......... tick, tock, tick, tock...
So, do you have an opinion on the Tesla Model 3 you can share?

Like it or not, which I understand as it's your opinion, it's the segment benchmark for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is the fact that several hundred thousand people don't share your opinion.....
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      10-20-2021, 12:13 PM   #79
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Quote:
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So, do you have an opinion on the Tesla Model 3 you can share?

Like it or not, which I understand as it's your opinion, it's the segment benchmark for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is the fact that several hundred thousand people don't share your opinion.....
And, many buy it for one of these primary reasons:
  • EVs are perceived to be environmentally friendly
  • They're "cool"
  • First on the block
  • Eager for ADAS
  • Performance
  • Charging network

I have not yet heard/read anyone attempting to establish overall vehicle quality/goodness/capability. There is usually one key emotional driver, as those shown above, and then all the trade-offs as to why the rest of the vehicle is so mediocre are rationalized/explained.

That's OK, too. Other famous models/brands have done well by offering something unique, even in the face of accompanying shortfalls. For a long time, the entire Jaguar brand was viewed as such by some. Bob "Maximum Bob" Lutz, father of the Viper (not known in early days for overall quality) established the principle that if "Things Gone Right" exceed "Things Gone Wrong" (not in number but in importance), buyers will buy. For Tesla folks, they have their TGRs, mostly as shown in the bullets above. For those of us who won't go near one, we see too many "TGWs" with higher importance.
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      10-20-2021, 12:37 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I've been in multiple TM3s. I have owned BMWs for 30+ years and the TM3 just doesn't work for me.

I like the interior of my Chevy Bolt better than TM3.

I don't think the weight/range of the i40 M50 matters to me. I've never looked at a car and not bought it because it was a porker.

E30 M3 < E36 M3 < E90 335i. It's been a weight increase every time I've moved cars.

I just buy what I like. I also can't get past the way the TM3 looks. I prefer the ID.4 over the TM3. Definitely the i4.

So I'm just waiting here with my money so I can order my car. Nov 18.......... tick, tock, tick, tock...
So, do you have an opinion on the Tesla Model 3 you can share?

Like it or not, which I understand as it's your opinion, it's the segment benchmark for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is the fact that several hundred thousand people don't share your opinion.....
People wanting to be perceived as green. Wanting to first on the block. The charging network, etc. There are many reasons.

Most of those people have never owned a vehicle that is up market or segment. My neighbor was one and he went for a TM3P. But he complained about the fit and finish at delivery. He loves it though.

I'm not new to EV tech. I've had a L2 charging station at my house for almost 7 years and on my third and soon to be forth EV.

So while Tesla had drive train and battery nailed, they have a long way to go to match the overall fit/finish of even a Chevy Bolt.

The final straw is that I just don't trust the brand. As someone that works in technology; and specifically worked on ADAS and ASIL(ISO26362); the marketing hype around FSD and Auto Pilot makes me cringe. It's dangerous and dishonest.
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      10-20-2021, 02:23 PM   #81
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Baloney.

Tesla safety, outside of FSD crashing into cars, is fine. The car is fine in accidents. In fact, it's better than fine. it's excellent, and crash tests prove it.

Battery chemistry is improving.

Thermal runaways aren't any different than any other BEV. Last I checked, Tesla wasn't recalling all their cars for thermal runaways when left unattended. Ahem Chevy / LG.
We do know Tesla has been doing opaque safety-related OTAs while LG did open recall campaign

Only Tesla knows if they have done any OTAs on thermal runaways without informing customers and NTHSA.

Maybe NTHSA should subpoena Tesla to disclose unabridged OTA details(not just the abridged release notes that Tesla published).

Battery chemistry of Li battery is not improving to the extent that thermal runaway is eliminated, a different battery chemistry is needed to hit that goal. So some (like BMW) build safety cages around battery, but Tesla does not to save weight(and hold on to their miles/kWh leads).
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      10-20-2021, 02:32 PM   #82
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P

The final straw is that I just don't trust the brand. As someone that works in technology; and specifically worked on ADAS and ASIL(ISO26362); the marketing hype around FSD and Auto Pilot makes me cringe. It's dangerous and dishonest.
This is also my final straw. Since late 2018, Tesla rolled out update after update, adding features and improving the vehicles. Everything from headlights, brakes, acceleration, drive modes, down to cameras, and arcade games. I can't tell you how many improvements and additions were made in 24 months. It was a LOT. Yeah, the car is kinda chintzy inside. But honestly, if you've just sat in one or gone for a few test drives, it's not enough to discover how good the car is as a PRODUCT. It works. Really, really well, It's surprisingly fun to drive. The systems make your life easier. YouTube in the car seems like a gimmick until you're waiting for your kids at soccer practice. AutoSteer / TACC seems gimmicky until you commute 30,000 miles a year in heavy traffic. It all just WORKS. So you put up with Elon's BS and the mediocre build quality because the car makes life easier. Even my wife said: "you get home a lot less grouchy in that car".

2021? NOTHING. Car wash mode and that's it. Why? FSD. The ultimate farce. Full and Self are in the name and neither is in the actual product. I've driven 35k miles on EAP and it's dangerous. Drives like a noobie. The Tesla fanbois crow about FSD and yeah, it works, kinda. But. It's supposed to make your life EASIER. It does nothing of the sort. It makes your BP rise. It's dangerous.

So yeah, once they went all in on FSD at the expense of improving the product like they had....I'm out.

Looking forward to an alternative that's 200% the car, and even 75% of the EV, for less than 150% of the price. So far, nothing. Will the i4 be that car?
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      10-20-2021, 02:34 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
So, do you have an opinion on the Tesla Model 3 you can share?

Like it or not, which I understand as it's your opinion, it's the segment benchmark for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is the fact that several hundred thousand people don't share your opinion.....
Among my contacts, the EE/Physics folks usually are reserved about Tesla, while the CS/marketing/MBA/non-tech folks love the bells and whistles, and so u have it.

Tesla really is a SW company learning how to build cars, while BMW is a car company catching up fast on SW.

Many see Tesla as the king of tech, but critical details are lost in the euphoric aura.

E.g. Tesla vision-only maxes out at 80mph, while BMW's radar can handle up to 130mph.

Tesla trusts its 6000+ metal jackets to protect its battery cells, while others(e.g. BMW) build reinforcement safety around its batteries.

Tesla pushes opaque OTAs for safety related issues, while others follow established protocols through open safety campaigns. Plus Tesla mandates NDAs of FSD beta testers.

And I do worried about sharing roads with several hundred thousand Teslas ....
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      10-20-2021, 02:40 PM   #84
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Some friends working on auto techs say FSD is optimistically 5 years away, I would say 10 in reality/in practice.

And the list of SW features u mentioned, BMW also has quietly released those in last 2 years.

Those SW marketing bullets are not hard to catch up on, it is the fundamentals like safety and reliability and driving dynamics and fit and finish that are hard to catch up on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
This is also my final straw. Since late 2018, Tesla rolled out update after update, adding features and improving the vehicles. Everything from headlights, brakes, acceleration, drive modes, down to cameras, and arcade games. I can't tell you how many improvements and additions were made in 24 months. It was a LOT. Yeah, the car is kinda chintzy inside. But honestly, if you've just sat in one or gone for a few test drives, it's not enough to discover how good the car is as a PRODUCT. It works. Really, really well, It's surprisingly fun to drive. The systems make your life easier. YouTube in the car seems like a gimmick until you're waiting for your kids at soccer practice. AutoSteer / TACC seems gimmicky until you commute 30,000 miles a year in heavy traffic. It all just WORKS. So you put up with Elon's BS and the mediocre build quality because the car makes life easier. Even my wife said: "you get home a lot less grouchy in that car".

2021? NOTHING. Car wash mode and that's it. Why? FSD. The ultimate farce. Full and Self are in the name and neither is in the actual product. I've driven 35k miles on EAP and it's dangerous. Drives like a noobie. The Tesla fanbois crow about FSD and yeah, it works, kinda. But. It's supposed to make your life EASIER. It does nothing of the sort. It makes your BP rise. It's dangerous.

So yeah, once they went all in on FSD at the expense of improving the product like they had....I'm out.
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      10-20-2021, 02:50 PM   #85
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Those SW marketing bullets are not hard to catch up on, it is the fundamentals like safety and reliability and driving dynamics and fit and finish that are hard to catch up on.
Safety of the ADAS systems aside, I believe you are giving short shrift to the safety and driving dynamics because of your focus on fit and finish. I can tell you, as a former BMW and current Porsche owner, the dynamics are actually very good. The shocks are crap, but then again, my F10 535 with DHP had massive holes in its setup as well. With a good set of shocks, the Model 3 has very solid performance chops.

Again, I won't argue the fit, finish and parts quality. That's madness. But some people have different priorities.
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      10-20-2021, 04:02 PM   #86
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
So, do you have an opinion on the Tesla Model 3 you can share?

Like it or not, which I understand as it's your opinion, it's the segment benchmark for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is the fact that several hundred thousand people don't share your opinion.....
Among my contacts, the EE/Physics folks usually are reserved about Tesla, while the CS/marketing/MBA/non-tech folks love the bells and whistles, and so u have it.

Tesla really is a SW company learning how to build cars, while BMW is a car company catching up fast on SW.

Many see Tesla as the king of tech, but critical details are lost in the euphoric aura.

E.g. Tesla vision-only maxes out at 80mph, while BMW's radar can handle up to 130mph.

Tesla trusts its 6000+ metal jackets to protect its battery cells, while others(e.g. BMW) build reinforcement safety around its batteries.

Tesla pushes opaque OTAs for safety related issues, while others follow established protocols through open safety campaigns. Plus Tesla mandates NDAs of FSD beta testers.

And I do worried about sharing roads with several hundred thousand Teslas ....
I am the EE. It's even worse I worked in fault tolerant computing and worked on automotive ADAS and ASIL (ISO26262) so I see through all the marketing crap.

When Tesla/Elon announced camera only for ADAS; all I could think about is a blind system in rain and fog...

BMW, Cruise and others still use front facing radar for differential speed calculation and distance.

I'm not going to beat a dead horse about why I don't like Tesla on a BMW forum. Especially because my like for BMW and dislike of Tesla have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

I don't dislike my Chevy Bolt because I'm buying an i4.
Anyway, enough about Tesla. I think I've read or watched every i4 review.
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      10-20-2021, 04:13 PM   #87
bavarianride
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Safety of the ADAS systems aside, I believe you are giving short shrift to the safety and driving dynamics because of your focus on fit and finish. I can tell you, as a former BMW and current Porsche owner, the dynamics are actually very good. The shocks are crap, but then again, my F10 535 with DHP had massive holes in its setup as well. With a good set of shocks, the Model 3 has very solid performance chops.

Again, I won't argue the fit, finish and parts quality. That's madness. But some people have different priorities.
Tesla(e.g. Model 3) suspension can give drivers the short shrift(figuratively and literally) while rotating around curves at speed, while my G20 330i can handily traverse even when driven like a Honda/Toyota. So Tesla(e.g. Model 3) driving dynamics is not that great esp. at corners/curves.

It is true that aftermarkets can help, but that would be extra costs to owners.

As far as safety, I would think owners should look for relevant stats of battery fires caused by side impacts to battery packs.
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      10-20-2021, 04:16 PM   #88
bavarianride
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
I think I've read or watched every i4 review.
I want to read technical spec of the active sensors in that vertical grille on i4. My guess is it actually can work above 130mph(the limit of current ACC).
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