[4monks]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Why does iG20 need to start with M340i weight?

Do note the extra 300lb from 330i to M340i comes from the I6 vs. I4, and extra standard options available on M340i.

So I would think 330i base's 3500lb minus 300lb will give the G20 chassis + wheels + interior equipment's(etc, etc), and then add 1200+lb for battery + electric motor.

Why start with a G20 M340i? - because that's engine and drive train I used to compare the i4 M50 against in the M440i GC. The reason the i4 M50 is "lighter" that the M440i GC (excluding batteries) is because the B58 6 pot, auto, xdrive, exhaust system is heavier the the i4 EV + controllers etc to the tune of roughly 352 lbs.

If you want to do an approximation as to what an iG20 weight might look like, you look at a G26 vs i4 M50 similarly specified, look at the difference, then spec a *similar* G20 and add the weight, you don't jump to the G20 with a different engine / drive train as you have.

If you do want to use the 330i as a baseline, then using an M430i GC vs i4 M50, you get a hypothetical weight of 4741 lbs - very similar to my original number.

Speculation aside, and as you say - a teardown will help...

[bavarianride]

It looks like G20 to G26 chassis have similar curb weights:

330i vs. 430i - 3560lb vs. 3578lb
M340i vs. M440i - 3876lb vs. 3858lb

Comparing 330i/430i vs. i4 40 RWD(4519lb), the weight increase is around 950lb.

This MT review says this about M50's weight:

"The handling was a different story. Here, the weight does show up, and its ill effects are compounded by the M50's steering feel."

I am looking forward to someone(e.g. BMW) EV that is as light-feet and competent around corners/curves as G20.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...-drive-review/


I also just notice i4 is coded as G26 BEV.

Originally Posted by 4monks

Why start with a G20 M340i? - because that's engine and drive train I used to compare the i4 M50 against in the M440i GC. The reason the i4 M50 is "lighter" that the M440i GC (excluding batteries) is because the B58 6 pot, auto, xdrive, exhaust system is heavier the the i4 EV + controllers etc to the tune of roughly 352 lbs.

If you want to do an approximation as to what an iG20 weight might look like, you look at a G26 vs i4 M50 similarly specified, look at the difference, then spec a *similar* G20 and add the weight, you don't jump to the G20 with a different engine / drive train as you have.

If you do want to use the 330i as a baseline, then using an M430i GC vs i4 M50, you get a hypothetical weight of 4741 lbs - very similar to my original number.

Speculation aside, and as you say - a teardown will help...

[karguy95]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Oh please give that trope a break. Open your mind and appreciate what some things are good at, eh? I've owned two model 3's, which is one more than the number of BMW's I've owned. My F10 535 was an absolutely terrible driving car. You can search my history on here if you don't believe it.

I've driven my two now over 70k miles and have to say the whole "you have to take your eyes off the road" thing is totally, totally overblown. First of all, checking your speed by looking to the center screen is just as easy as glancing down. Second of all, almost everything is auto, and the screen logic is so easily laid out that it's a dawdle to operate. Third, I own a 958 generation Cayenne, which has buttons for freaking EVERYTHING. Let me tell you, you have to look down to operate those too, because there's a button for everything!



People make too much hype out of the screen controlling most things because it's foreign to them and they haven't lived with it.

Having said that, I believe that the i4, or really the iX, has the right amount of buttons. The Tesla has some controls that really would be better as direct buttons. Like the wipers, for one.

Thank You, All these guys have never driven a TM3. And we are all forgetting about the charging network. In the US specifically a big city like New York. Most city dwellers live in building. which means you can't charge your car at home. But you don't need to worry because there are at least 5 Superchargers locations within a 10 mile radius. Another thing the car doesn't have a FRUNK! i don't use my Model 3 front trunk often but dammit it's an EV with a long hood like that they dropped the ball with that one.

Also why does going to Texas change anything? California is becoming a terrible place to live for big businesses. if anything they'll have a bigger HQ in Texas and hopefully start a QA (Quality Assurance) team.

IMO the Model 3 is still a better all around car you guys just want the Badge. Yes they are everywhere but so are BMWs most people don't know the difference between a i4 and a 430i please!

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by karguy95

Thank You, All these guys have never driven a TM3. And we are all forgetting about the charging network. In the US specifically a big city like New York. Most city dwellers live in building. which means you can't charge your car at home. But you don't need to worry because there are at least 5 Superchargers locations within a 10 mile radius. Another thing the car doesn't have a FRUNK! i don't use my Model 3 front trunk often but dammit it's an EV with a long hood like that they dropped the ball with that one.

Also why does going to Texas change anything? California is becoming a terrible place to live for big businesses. if anything they'll have a bigger HQ in Texas and hopefully start a QA (Quality Assurance) team.

IMO the Model 3 is still a better all around car you guys just want the Badge. Yes they are everywhere but so are BMWs most people don't know the difference between a i4 and a 430i please!

1. I have driven and ridden in a model 3. I'll pass. Don't like the interior and fit/finish.

2. I live in the Bay Area and have a house. Charging network matters not to me. For the most part US in general isn't ready for EV. Having to go somewhere and wait to charge is just a pain. Apartment buildings and where people park need to have charging installed. If you don't live where you have a L2 charging station at home a EV doesn't make a whole lot of sense. YMMV

3. Frunk? Really? The i4 has more storage even without a frunk and even more if you drop the seats.

Moving out of California? That's a personal thing when my tax dollars and Ca. tax breaks allowed Tesla to actually thrive. He got huge tax break in Fremont for the old NUMMI plant and the associated buildings along with facilities in Stockton and Lathrop.

Ca is doesn't see Apple, Nvidia, AMD, Lucid, etc and others leaving. Elon was pissed because Ca. wouldn't allow him to stay open during the initial stages of Covid. whatever. Elon is a big baby. Rich but he's still a big baby that throws tantrums and doesn't know how to STFU which is why he's always in trouble with the SEC.

The TM3 a better car? That is subjective and based on your checklist of features. Fit and finish matters to me. I don't like fake leather. I don't like a choice of either black or white for interior colors. I don't like the color selection or the exterior or the paint quality.

I don't like the false marketing of L2 ADAS as autopilot and full self driving.

I have a nephew that worked at Tesla for several years and he said he might would buy a Model S or X but never a Model 3.

If you don't like the i4; don't buy one. But don't come to a BMW forum dedicated to an i4 and think you can come here touting your praises for a TM3 and go unchecked.

TM3, ad nauseum. Yawn.

The Chevy Bolt offers better value than a TM3.
Yes, I own one.

[4monks]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

It looks like G20 to G26 chassis have similar curb weights:

330i vs. 430i - 3560lb vs. 3578lb
M340i vs. M440i - 3876lb vs. 3858lb

Comparing 330i/430i vs. i4 40 RWD(4519lb), the weight increase is around 950lb.

This MT review says this about M50's weight:

"The handling was a different story. Here, the weight does show up, and its ill effects are compounded by the M50's steering feel."

I am looking forward to someone(e.g. BMW) EV that is as light-feet and competent around corners/curves as G20.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...-drive-review/

I also just notice i4 is coded as G26 BEV.

You're comparing the wrong weights. You are looking at the G20 vs G22 (4 Series Coupe) not the G26 (4 Series Gran Coupe).

The G26 430i GC is 309 lbs > G20 330i.
The G26 M440i xDrive is 198 lbs > G20 M340i xDrive.

Looking at *all* of the motor press reviews, on balance, they're quite positive. You must keep in mind that the G26 is a bigger and heavier vehicle than G20 in ICE form.

Table of weights below. Hopefully if they do a G20 variant it will be more nimble but as you say, still ~1000 lbs > than the ICE equivalent.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...-testing-again

[bavarianride]

You are correct, G20 sedan and G22 coupe are close in curb weights, but G26 GC is extra 200+lb on top of G22 coupe. I think the G26 hatchback adds quite a bit of rear weight.

Wow I will be interested in G20 BEV.

Originally Posted by 4monks

You're comparing the wrong weights. You are looking at the G20 vs G22 (4 Series Coupe) not the G26 (4 Series Gran Coupe).

The G26 430i GC is 309 lbs > G20 330i.
The G26 M440i xDrive is 198 lbs > G20 M340i xDrive.

Looking at *all* of the motor press reviews, on balance, they're quite positive. You must keep in mind that the G26 is a bigger and heavier vehicle than G20 in ICE form.

Table of weights below. Hopefully if they do a G20 variant it will be more nimble but as you say, still ~1000 lbs > than the ICE equivalent.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...-testing-again

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

You are correct, G20 sedan and G22 coupe are close in curb weights, but G26 GC is extra 200+lb on top of G22 coupe. I think the G26 hatchback adds quite a bit of rear weight.

Wow I will be interested in G20 BEV.

It's not just the hatch for the additional 300lbs over a G20.

Those frameless doors in the GC requires the roof structure be beefier for the same roll over protection.

The 3 series has frames on the windows.

That being said a 3 series electric will be.cool. I would buy either in the M50 form. It just happens the 4 GC is available first.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

It's not just the hatch for the additional 300lbs over a G20.

Those frameless doors in the GC requires the roof structure be beefier for the same roll over protection.

The 3 series has frames on the windows.

That being said a 3 series electric will be.cool. I would buy either in the M50 form. It just happens the 4 GC is available first.

If I have to balance extra weight versus having to have a conventional trunk instead of a liftgate....the liftgate FTW for overall versatility as a DD.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

That being said a 3 series electric will be.cool. I would buy either in the M50 form. It just happens the 4 GC is available first.

If inflated used car prices is still around in 2023, I will sell/trade my 2021 330i for a 2023 iG20.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

If inflated used car prices is still around in 2023, I will sell/trade my 2021 330i for a 2023 iG20.

I believe the electric G20 i3 will be a China only vehicle.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

I believe the electric G20 i3 will be a China only vehicle.

That is too bad, I still want to see the specs of that iG28, e.g. is there any weight savings over i4?

[karguy95]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

1. I have driven and ridden in a model 3. I'll pass. Don't like the interior and fit/finish.

2. I live in the Bay Area and have a house. Charging network matters not to me. For the most part US in general isn't ready for EV. Having to go somewhere and wait to charge is just a pain. Apartment buildings and where people park need to have charging installed. If you don't live where you have a L2 charging station at home a EV doesn't make a whole lot of sense. YMMV

3. Frunk? Really? The i4 has more storage even without a frunk and even more if you drop the seats.

Moving out of California? That's a personal thing when my tax dollars and Ca. tax breaks allowed Tesla to actually thrive. He got huge tax break in Fremont for the old NUMMI plant and the associated buildings along with facilities in Stockton and Lathrop.

Ca is doesn't see Apple, Nvidia, AMD, Lucid, etc and others leaving. Elon was pissed because Ca. wouldn't allow him to stay open during the initial stages of Covid. whatever. Elon is a big baby. Rich but he's still a big baby that throws tantrums and doesn't know how to STFU which is why he's always in trouble with the SEC.

The TM3 a better car? That is subjective and based on your checklist of features. Fit and finish matters to me. I don't like fake leather. I don't like a choice of either black or white for interior colors. I don't like the color selection or the exterior or the paint quality.

I don't like the false marketing of L2 ADAS as autopilot and full self driving.

I have a nephew that worked at Tesla for several years and he said he might would buy a Model S or X but never a Model 3.

If you don't like the i4; don't buy one. But don't come to a BMW forum dedicated to an i4 and think you can come here touting your praises for a TM3 and go unchecked.

TM3, ad nauseum. Yawn.

The Chevy Bolt offers better value than a TM3.
Yes, I own one.

In the end you basically proved my point. You are biased because you're a BMW fan. But hey so am I. When most people were shitting on the new M3 for the grille i actually liked it. Your reply did not compare the two,you mostly said why you like the BMW more than Tesla the brand not even the i4.

In conclusion, my unbiased argument was that the Model3P is an overall better Car for the package than the i4 M50, right now anyways.

Personally i see no reason to let go my M3P for a i4 im most likely going to get an LCI G80 M3.

the Model 3 gives you more out of being a DD in my opinion. you mentioned how the US isn't ready for EVs. that is correct but the US is ready for Tesla's and that's a fact. can you drive aross the country in any Tesla? YES! can you do that with any other EV? (as easily) NO! especially your Bolt lol.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by karguy95

In the end you basically proved my point. You are biased because you're a BMW fan. But hey so am I. When most people were shitting on the new M3 for the grille i actually liked it. Your reply did not compare the two,you mostly said why you like the BMW more than Tesla the brand not even the i4.

In conclusion, my unbiased argument was that the Model3P is an overall better Car for the package than the i4 M50, right now anyways.

Personally i see no reason to let go my M3P for a i4 im most likely going to get an LCI G80 M3.

the Model 3 gives you more out of being a DD in my opinion. you mentioned how the US isn't ready for EVs. that is correct but the US is ready for Tesla's and that's a fact. can you drive aross the country in any Tesla? YES! can you do that with any other EV? (as easily) NO! especially your Bolt lol.

No, I'm not biased against Tesla because I'm a BMW fan. I'm biased against Tesla because I think they are a tech company that makes crap cars.

The quality is sub par and if Chevy made a car with the fit and finish of a TM3 they would get blasted in the press. I have a Chevy Bolt that is quality wise head and shoulders above Tesla and I could get leather in it.

I don't like them marketing L2 ADAS as FSD when it never will be that. It will always require your hands on the wheels. The redundancy required for L4/L5 autonomous isn't there.

I don't lie that they give you a delivery date and if the demand for more expensive cars goes up, they slip your date to make money.

I do t like that they will attempt to raise the price of a car already under contract.

I don't like the styling of a TM3 at all.

I have plenty of reasons not to like Tesla and none of them involve my like for BMW. My dislike of Tesla is completely orthogonal to what I think of BMW. I like plenty of cars and some are competitors to BMW. I'm a car guy and Tesla is a rolling iPad.

There are people that keep trying to push the TM3 as better than the i4 because they like Tesla.

I like the Taycan, Lucid Air and others. Just too rich for my blood.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

As of right now, Tesla is still a SW learning how to build cars, while BMW is a car company that is catching up (very fast) on SW.

And because of Tesla's SW focus, it does not focus enough on the basics.

E.g. while BMW and others are conservative with battery safety structures without battery as part of chassis, Telsa will double down by removing the "skateboard", and bolt on front and rear subframes to the battery pack, at a time their battery chemistry still allows thermal runaways.

I did have a Model 3 on order, but Tesla had no car for me, so I bought a G20 instead. In hindsight, that appears to be the right choice to sidestep Tesla for now.

The gigacasting is kind of a genius idea though, they simplified from 300+ parts to just 3 which makes things simple, increases rigidity, and should be way more accurate than trying to make 300 parts align and fit

Fires are about 10x more likely to happen on ice cars than EVs when compared by miles driven

[karguy95]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

No, I'm not biased against Tesla because I'm a BMW fan. I'm biased against Tesla because I think they are a tech company that makes crap cars.

The quality is sub par and if Chevy made a car with the fit and finish of a TM3 they would get blasted in the press. I have a Chevy Bolt that is quality wise head and shoulders above Tesla and I could get leather in it.

I don't like them marketing L2 ADAS as FSD when it never will be that. It will always require your hands on the wheels. The redundancy required for L4/L5 autonomous isn't there.

I don't lie that they give you a delivery date and if the demand for more expensive cars goes up, they slip your date to make money.

I do t like that they will attempt to raise the price of a car already under contract.

I don't like the styling of a TM3 at all.

I have plenty of reasons not to like Tesla and none of them involve my like for BMW. My dislike of Tesla is completely orthogonal to what I think of BMW. I like plenty of cars and some are competitors to BMW. I'm a car guy and Tesla is a rolling iPad.

There are people that keep trying to push the TM3 as better than the i4 because they like Tesla.

I like the Taycan, Lucid Air and others. Just too rich for my blood.

Well Said. surprisingly i agree with you on all those points. It is a rolling Ipad which is part of the reason i like them. Regarding the autopilot for what it is right now it is amazing! honestly it truly is.

Getting to full auto pilot from a tech and legal perspective i think its very tricky and that will no doubt take time at least until most other car brands reach a the level of self driving as Tesla is. there is still a lot of variables and unknowns e.g. if the car crashes in autopilot causes property damage or runs over someone and kills them or trys to avoid traffic and destroys property. How will auto insurance handle those cases. i could be a crap driver and hit someone but blame it on autopilot and try to sue. too much variables indeed.

Lastly, Aw man i'm a bigger Porsche fan than BMW. to be honest i just need the charging infrastructure to get to the level of Tesla and im sold ill sell this ipad on wheels real quick. But until then ill deal with the crappy build quality there are mods to make the interior better so it is what it is.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

The gigacasting is kind of a genius idea though, they simplified from 300+ parts to just 3 which makes things simple, increases rigidity, and should be way more accurate than trying to make 300 parts align and fit

Fires are about 10x more likely to happen on ice cars than EVs when compared by miles driven

Munro did comment that Model 3 has 10 parts welded together for wheel wells, and Model Y improves to 1-2 parts as is done by mainstream automakers. So Tesla is actively fixing its deficiencies of manufacturing and fits and finishes that other automakers have mastered a long long time ago.

Of course Tesla can't tell customers about such deficiencies.

As far as fire risks, embedded in the 10x number is the relevant stats of half-day electric fires caused by impact, vs. half-hour gasoline fires caused by impact.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by karguy95

Well Said. surprisingly i agree with you on all those points. It is a rolling Ipad which is part of the reason i like them. Regarding the autopilot for what it is right now it is amazing! honestly it truly is.

Getting to full auto pilot from a tech and legal perspective i think its very tricky and that will no doubt take time at least until most other car brands reach a the level of self driving as Tesla is. there is still a lot of variables and unknowns e.g. if the car crashes in autopilot causes property damage or runs over someone and kills them or trys to avoid traffic and destroys property. How will auto insurance handle those cases. i could be a crap driver and hit someone but blame it on autopilot and try to sue. too much variables indeed.

Lastly, Aw man i'm a bigger Porsche fan than BMW. to be honest i just need the charging infrastructure to get to the level of Tesla and im sold ill sell this ipad on wheels real quick. But until then ill deal with the crappy build quality there are mods to make the interior better so it is what it is.

Tesla has people believing that they have the best ADAS out there.

GM Super Cruise is hands free on the freeway. Tesla is behind Cruise.

Cruise has permits in California for driverless taxis. So does Waymo. Tesla doesn't lead.

I have been doing ADAS and ASIL (ISO26262) for years. The marketing hype is a good reason why not to buy a Tesla. They are camera only without redundant cameras. You can never be hands off without redundancy and graceful fail. Elon musk says you can, but they play fast and loose with driver safety.

[bavarianride]

I think Tesla does plan to open up Supercharger network, which is funded by $1.5B tax money anyway. So Tesla can't really reserve its publicly funded charging network to its well-healed customers.

I did have a Model 3 on order but Tesla had no car for me. They did switch and bait to a M3P for $20k extra for immediate delivery, and I declined(and bought a G20 330i instead).

I would say in CA the emission and running cost of current gens of ICE, BEV, and PHEV are pretty close, so I should be OK for the next 6-10 years.

As far as FSD, I will pay for it when automakers(e.g. Tesla, BMW) assume full liabilities, or else I don't want any FSD HW/SW at all.

Originally Posted by karguy95

Well Said. surprisingly i agree with you on all those points. It is a rolling Ipad which is part of the reason i like them. Regarding the autopilot for what it is right now it is amazing! honestly it truly is.

Getting to full auto pilot from a tech and legal perspective i think its very tricky and that will no doubt take time at least until most other car brands reach a the level of self driving as Tesla is. there is still a lot of variables and unknowns e.g. if the car crashes in autopilot causes property damage or runs over someone and kills them or trys to avoid traffic and destroys property. How will auto insurance handle those cases. i could be a crap driver and hit someone but blame it on autopilot and try to sue. too much variables indeed.

Lastly, Aw man i'm a bigger Porsche fan than BMW. to be honest i just need the charging infrastructure to get to the level of Tesla and im sold ill sell this ipad on wheels real quick. But until then ill deal with the crappy build quality there are mods to make the interior better so it is what it is.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Tesla has people believing that they have the best ADAS out there.

GM Super Cruise is hands free on the freeway. Tesla is behind Cruise.

Cruise has permits in California for driverless taxis. So does Waymo. Tesla doesn't lead.

I have been doing ADAS and ASIL (ISO26262) for years. The marketing hype is a good reason why not to buy a Tesla. They are camera only without redundant cameras. You can never be hands off without redundancy and graceful fail. Elon musk says you can, but they play fast and loose with driver safety.

Tesla does skip on important engineering basics.

E.g. their next gen battery pack does not even have skateboard, and front/rear subframes are bolted directly to the battery pack. So one (even small) hit to the side may total the car.

As far as camera-only system, I do want to see head-to-head quantitative measurement of Tesla's, vs. others with radar(that big grille of latest BMWs serves another important function).

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Tesla has people believing that they have the best ADAS out there.

GM Super Cruise is hands free on the freeway. Tesla is behind Cruise.

Cruise has permits in California for driverless taxis. So does Waymo. Tesla doesn't lead.

I have been doing ADAS and ASIL (ISO26262) for years. The marketing hype is a good reason why not to buy a Tesla. They are camera only without redundant cameras. You can never be hands off without redundancy and graceful fail. Elon musk says you can, but they play fast and loose with driver safety.

But Tesla used to have radars not so long ago, they wouldn't remove them if they hadn't verified that their vision system is good to the point radar makes no difference.

Seems to me like Cruise an other systems might not be maybe good enough vision wise that they need to really on other sensors for accuracy

I believe teslas have several cameras so not sure what you mean with redundant cameras, there are probably like 8-10 cameras

Humans have no radars and only 2 eyes, so not sure how 10 cameras processed concurrently can't eventually be as effective

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Tesla does skip on important engineering basics.

E.g. their next gen battery pack does not even have skateboard, and front/rear subframes are bolted directly to the battery pack. So one (even small) hit to the side may total the car.

As far as camera-only system, I do want to see head-to-head quantitative measurement of Tesla's, vs. others with radar(that big grille of latest BMWs serves another important function).

I would wait for some data before making speculations about if skateboard design is more / less safe

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

But Tesla used to have radars not so long ago, they wouldn't remove them if they hadn't verified that their vision system is good to the point radar makes no difference.

Seems to me like Cruise an other systems might not be maybe good enough vision wise that they need to really on other sensors for accuracy

I believe teslas have several cameras so not sure what you mean with redundant cameras, there are probably like 8-10 cameras

Humans have no radars and only 2 eyes, so not sure how 10 cameras processed concurrently can't eventually be as effective

I think redundant cameras would require each of the 8-10 cameras to have 2-3 units to support switchovers upon failures, and Tesla does not have that.

Human eyes are very good at resolving contrast while capturing fine details, and the ocular nerves at the back of the eyes are basically extension of brain stem, and 30-40% of brain cells are for vision.

What humans lack are reaction times that computers are good at.