[B530e]

Originally Posted by Prazision

Fundamentally, they are building a jack of all trades master of none. Until they go full BEV chassis, this thing will always lose to Tesla, and Lucid, and insert any new car company that isn't half assing a chassis.

I'd never purchase a Tesla or Lucid. There's more to a car than "the numbers" and even if the i4 falls short in performance, price and range, they are established in areas that matter most to me and Tesla falls short in.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by KaptainKloss

It has nothing to do with brand, it's about building a competitive product. Let's be honest, do you feel comfortable buying this car knowing that a Model 3 and Model S have more range and FSD will eventually be coming?

Individuals outside these types of forums don't care about brand loyalty, especially when it comes to EV's. We have to throw out this archaic excuse for inferior products because eventually the market will decide the winners and losers. And this time around lack of innovation will lead to devastating losses.

I think the point was missed. I used "brand" and could have used "corporation". This is the BMWAG strategy to maintain platform flexibility at least throughout the 2020s. It may please or displease any individual, but for their business and engineering reasons, this is their intentional path. It's a strategy and not an excuse...even if you do not agree with it. You might choose to buy from a company with a different strategy. Most in the market will have no knowledge of platform powertrain versatility.

Platform design and range are not inherently correlated, so I do not understand the choice you are creating. An advance in battery technology could be adapted to an EV-only platform (floorpan, cowl) or to a platform which can accept more than an EV powertrain.

In any event, there is nothing on the horizon Tesla could do to persuade me into any of their generally inferior (other than powertrain) products. Further, I am in the segment of the market that will carefully specify my vehicles to avoid any/all self driving technology.

The market's overall selection for an EV will be based on attributes and deliverables that meet or exceed each consumer's threshold requirements. Discussions of platform architecture are for body and suspension engineers and a select portion of forum members. When consumers see and drive the vehicles and know the actual capabilities, then decisions will be made.

[eddiehaug]

It blows my mind that people compare BMW, Audi, or Mercedes cars to Teslas. Teslas have a similar price tag, quick acceleration and a CEO with a big mouth, that's it.

I would never, ever, ever buy a Tesla, no matter how much more range they offer or how quickly they accelerate.

Using fast charging makes most trips a non-issue. You gotta stop at a gas station and at least stretch your legs anyway. A different issue is the availability of charging stations, which makes, understandably, in some countries, Tesla the only viable option. This could be the case in some areas of the US, or so it seems.

Where I live, with an almost equally good charging network for Teslas and non-Teslas, I don't care if the car gives me 450 or 550Kms on a full battery, because I'll most likely have to charge it along the way anyway, and I've never managed to drive 450Kms non-stop. Of course there can be trips in which you'd like to have more range, but that's true no matter how many miles you can get from the battery.

EV charging still represent an inconvenience compared to ICE cars, and probably that'll be the case for most people for a long while, but what I've seen is that most people deal with it quite well, and not many are complaining about it. And again, you'll only notice it during really long trips.

Regarding the price, I see that's still an issue in many countries. In Europe, the subsidies make it a no-brainer, though for sure they'll be eliminated sooner than later. If it wasn't for the incentives (and penalties for using an ICE, as it's the case in my country), nobody would choose an EV over an ICE, myself included.

[chadkoepf]

I own a tesla. they go fast in a straight line, if thats all you care about they are fine. if you care about build quality, comfort, drive quality, paint quality... I can't wait to unload my tesla to some poor unsuspecting person that thinks they are amazing because elon posts memes.

trash vehicle and even worse customer service.

[BMthusiast]

If BMW can fully replicate the ///M experience with a 100% EV powertrain I would honestly be fine with it. This means replicating engine sound, cabin vibrations, throttle vibration in your feet, and also replicating transmission shift feel along with the beautiful sound of shifting gears. Downshifting with some rumble and upshifting with a snarl. Maybe where exhaust pipes should be there'll be speakers? Maybe upon startup the car will roar and sound exactly like an ICE inside and outside.... This is what I'm hoping for. Even knowing that all these replicated features would be akin to an arcade game and not real, as long as the enjoyment's there is all I care about. Oh and range! Gotta have range.

[Prazision]

I think we actually agree, my problem is their engineering and business decisions are driven by too short term of a view. In my opinion not a single manufacturer would be where they are with their product lines in EV, if they didn't feel a little fear from a brand new auto maker who went from .5% of the market, to 1% to 2% in a very short timeframe.

Seems like BMW has a traditional business model of bottom-line focus vs. bold roadmap is failing them imo. Tesla shows where their money goes, excess goes right to R&D. As much as I love the BMW brand, if they don't change their "business" model, their engineering is going to be impacted, and they will allow many other companies who get to spend $50B just on an electric car win out.

Take a look at California, at their top selling vehicles this H1 of this year. Not a sure fire indicator where the average bloke is going, but momentum is not in the the favor of BMW.

They had a great chance with i brand, but went for two cars that do not suit the average American, shows me they are not looking in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I think the point was missed. I used "brand" and could have used "corporation". This is the BMWAG strategy to maintain platform flexibility at least throughout the 2020s. It may please or displease any individual, but for their business and engineering reasons, this is their intentional path. It's a strategy and not an excuse...even if you do not agree with it. You might choose to buy from a company with a different strategy. Most in the market will have no knowledge of platform powertrain versatility.

Platform design and range are not inherently correlated, so I do not understand the choice you are creating. An advance in battery technology could be adapted to an EV-only platform (floorpan, cowl) or to a platform which can accept more than an EV powertrain.

In any event, there is nothing on the horizon Tesla could do to persuade me into any of their generally inferior (other than powertrain) products. Further, I am in the segment of the market that will carefully specify my vehicles to avoid any/all self driving technology.

The market's overall selection for an EV will be based on attributes and deliverables that meet or exceed each consumer's threshold requirements. Discussions of platform architecture are for body and suspension engineers and a select portion of forum members. When consumers see and drive the vehicles and know the actual capabilities, then decisions will be made.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by KaptainKloss

It has nothing to do with brand, it's about building a competitive product. Let's be honest, do you feel comfortable buying this car knowing that a Model 3 and Model S have more range and FSD will eventually be coming?

Individuals outside these types of forums don't care about brand loyalty, especially when it comes to EV's. We have to throw out this archaic excuse for inferior products because eventually the market will decide the winners and losers. And this time around lack of innovation will lead to devastating losses.

I would feel very comfortable buying this car knowing that a Model 3 and Model S have more range. I'm not neither a bus driver, nor an uber driver. That's why I've never bought diesels over the years: 520d in Europe has a 1000miles range. I'd take M550i any day over it. Range is the least of my concerns when buying a car. Actually, I don't think I've even looked into range when buying a car, ever. Tesla fanboys have convinced some people that the range is the only thing that matters, because Tesla can't deliver anything else other than range and performance. But that's not true. The best selling EV in Europe has 130 miles of range. Nobody cares.
Especially considering almost no one ever travels more than 200 miles at once. (Sure, someone does, but that's not the point)
But I would feel extremely uncomfortable paying $80K for a "car" that can't compete with any $50K Car in the entire world in terms of quality, comfort, reliability, driving pleasure, suspension, breaks, steering, and the list goes on.

[Staszek]

Ughhh this whole range argument. The i4 isn't going to lose on range, it's going to lose on packaging, cool factor and maybe looks but not range.

Telsa is caught up in that its cool to buy a Tesla phase still. The model S is still fairly exclusive at its highest year it didnt top 30,000 cars in the US. Model 3 is a volume seller and there are a lot more of them out there, that fad will wear off when they start to look boring. Also, if they keep putting out cars made of paper mache it will eventually bite them.

The average person drives 26 miles per day. Yes there are people who do more but most of them wouldnt be able to do it in a Tesla either.

My neighbor has a Model 3 and he does not get close to the "range" described, especially in the winter.

An i4 M50 with 240-mile range is well more than enough by a long shot.

[imserious]

Why is it so slow with low range and high price?

Rather have the Audi etron. At least audis look really slick.

You can love or hate Teslas. They are still an engineering marvel.

This looks like a 3 series with an electric motor and a "4" badge. Not a complete failure but pretty meh.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by KaptainKloss

It has nothing to do with brand, it's about building a competitive product. Let's be honest, do you feel comfortable buying this car knowing that a Model 3 and Model S have more range and FSD will eventually be coming?

I don't think FSD would be coming anytime soon.
The recent NHTSA's Autopilot investigation is likely to push it back years. And I wouldn't trust its vision only radar-less system anyways; its system is nowhere near FSD ready.

[therealm3]

Originally Posted by chadkoepf

I own a tesla. they go fast in a straight line, if thats all you care about they are fine. if you care about build quality, comfort, drive quality, paint quality... I can't wait to unload my tesla to some poor unsuspecting person that thinks they are amazing because elon posts memes.

trash vehicle and even worse customer service.

This.

Tesla doesn't know how to be a car company. Plain and simple.

People complain that ev's don't have road trip range, but how often do you take an actual road trip? Sure I'd love to have an ev with 300, 350,or 400 miles of real range, but let's face it, once you hit about 200-250, that is plenty. We have owned two electric cars so far. The first was a bit over 100 miles range and that was great for local stuff but did suck to go to the Bay Area from Sacramento where we live. ( about 80 miles or so) Plus at that time chargers were hard to find and were slower. Now we have a car with 220 miles of range and it's great. We can go days without charging and can easily go to the bay if need be. Fast chargers are much more prevalent but really we charge 99.9% of the time at home via level 2.

I welcome the i4 and other cars from real car companies because I know if I do have a problem or need body repairs, there is a support network that can provide that. This is where Tesla loses again.

So for now we rent an suv or van (gasp) when we need to do a true road trip. You know, once or twice a year. Otherwise we pile into my 340. But, other than an older m3 that will be a garage queen, I am pretty sure this 340 is my last ICE car. And my wife who drives the EV most of the time now, is already a convert.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by NightWriter

Not sure I agree; consider that the M440i xDrive GC starts around $58k. The i4 M50 offers a similar platform/size but with better performance. Although it starts at $66k (about 8k higher), I believe it should be eligible for the $7500 federal tax credit (and potentially state tax breaks as well), which should make it price-neutral... and likely lower maintenance and running costs (electric vs gas).

With the massive inconvenience of having an electric car. Let's call a spade a spade. Electric = limiting in range and total distance. And That tax credit is great but shouldn't be relied on and certainly shouldn't be an excuse for car companies to over charge.

[eddiehaug]

Take a look at the stats here: https://elbilstatistikk.no/

That page shows the number of new EV registrations in 2021 in Norway, where the government has an extremely aggressive policy forcing people to buy EVs instead of ICEs.

Except for the TM3, both the Model S and Model X have barely any new registrations, while similarly priced cars in the respective categories, such as the Audi e-Tron/GT and the Porsche Taycan, have thousands and hundreds of new registrations, respectively.

This tells me that when given the choice of a similarly priced car, with similar characteristics, people prefer other brands rather than Tesla.

The Model 3 hasn't had any real competition so far, being the Polestar the only attempt at taking market share from Tesla, and now the i4/M50.

I could be wrong, but I think that as soon as more alternatives to Teslas hit the market, the market share of Tesla will start shrinking or, at least, fattening out, while other brands more focused on the overall driving experience, customer service and quality will take over the market.

Tesla's been enjoying a first mover advantage in this market, but the products it offers are not differentiated enough as for it to be able to sustain its advantage over time, unless that factors such as the charging network really create that differentiation. But that also is just a matter of time before other companies catch up.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Prazision

I think we actually agree, my problem is their engineering and business decisions are driven by too short term of a view. In my opinion not a single manufacturer would be where they are with their product lines in EV, if they didn't feel a little fear from a brand new auto maker who went from .5% of the market, to 1% to 2% in a very short timeframe.

Seems like BMW has a traditional business model of bottom-line focus vs. bold roadmap is failing them imo. Tesla shows where their money goes, excess goes right to R&D. As much as I love the BMW brand, if they don't change their "business" model, their engineering is going to be impacted, and they will allow many other companies who get to spend $50B just on an electric car win out.

Take a look at California, at their top selling vehicles this H1 of this year. Not a sure fire indicator where the average bloke is going, but momentum is not in the the favor of BMW.

They had a great chance with i brand, but went for two cars that do not suit the average American, shows me they are not looking in the right direction.

We may indeed agree on consumer motivation, but from the other side of the table (where I spent my career, although it was not BMW), consider the plight of the OEM. First, BMW is the small guy in Germany. Here are the market capitalizations for the G3:

VWAG: $124.95 billion
DaimlerAG: $89.72 billion
BMWAG: $52.46 billion

The little guy has to exercise some more caution in their strategic planning. The first and foremost task....keep the plants full for revenue and shareholder value. When the decisions were being finalized for the CLAR platform as their first (relatively) high-volume EV, it was probably 2016. Back then, data we had showed EVs were the first choice preference of about 3% of the market. They had to make a decision that would not allow them to be left out in the cold with a plant facilitized for an EV platform but insufficient demand versus their ICE products. So, we have CLAR which has capability for both. It then fell to Engineering to ensure the car has competitive performance. We will soon enough see how well they did.

Fast forward to now. EV intention has zoomed all the way up to....about 8-10%....that's it. The good news is that about 40-50%, depending on the study, indicate they are either "open to learning more" or "willing to consider" an EV. Decisions being made now will come to life in the last half of this decade. How much confidence should they now have about relative market demand for production before the next decade when EV will likely take off much more strongly? They can do a "clean sheet" platform (as is their plan...the Neu Klasse platform replacing CLAR in a few years) that inherently still provides them the flexibiity, or they can dedicate an entire product line to one powertrain only and risk its' volume, or they can spend hundreds of millions extra to facilitize a plant for multiple platforms. Given the pros and cons, I can see the wisdom for the smallest OEM among these "Big 3" to make their strategic decision and task Engineering with developing the needed attributes on the more versatile platform. By doing so, they know that the plants stay full and they maintain the revenue stream necessary to get them to a possible new plan in the 2030s when the transition to EV will be much more clear and assured.

[KaptainKloss]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

I don't think FSD would be coming anytime soon.
The recent NHTSA's Autopilot investigation is likely to push it back years. And I wouldn't trust its vision only radar-less system anyways; its system is nowhere near FSD ready.

Radar is exactly the problem. It has its limitations. You need a comprehensive, constantly evolving system that uses real world data to improve the performance of the vehicle and adapt to every plausible situation.

You can't create a robotaxi network by just relying on the information 360 degrees around the car. The car has to be able to adapt and make certain decisions for itself. If you saw the AI day presentation, the car makes around 2500 decisions in 1.5 seconds. It's stuff like this that's going to make FSD plausible, not just cameras reading x amount of feet in front and behind a vehicle.

[eljay]

I hate to post this, but.... yes, I like the i4 M50 idea.
The only thing that I want to complain about is that it's a GT-styled sedan.
Make this into a hatch and Touring and I would take one (in 10 years when they depreciate wnough for me to afford it).
Nice work BMW!

[NightWriter]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

With the massive inconvenience of having an electric car. Let's call a spade a spade. Electric = limiting in range and total distance. And That tax credit is great but shouldn't be relied on and certainly shouldn't be an excuse for car companies to over charge.

I'm a petrol-head, so you don't need to preach to me. But let's not pretend that EVs are NOT* inevitable. And I was merely pointing out that, objectively, the i4 (M50, at least) is reasonably priced.

[*correction]

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by KaptainKloss

Radar is exactly the problem. It has its limitations......The car has to be able to adapt and make certain decisions for itself. If you saw the AI day presentation, the car makes around 2500 decisions in 1.5 seconds. It's stuff like this that's going to make FSD plausible, not just cameras reading x amount of feet in front and behind a vehicle.

Maybe in 10 years time.
For sure, AI and vision system is the future, but our current technology, unfortunately, is nowhere near a fool-proof system that FSD requires. Until we get there, radar and LIDAR are essential backups when visual detection system fails (which happens more often than we want).

When Tesla and most other systems cannot even get a working adaptive cruise system without all the numerous reports of phantom braking, how would you trust a FSD?

[BklynNYBMW]

I had the opportunity to do a test marketing for BMW over the weekend at the Meadowlands in New Jersey this past Saturday for the i4 and the ix. For comparison there was the Tesla3 for the i4 and the Tesla Model X for the BMW ix
The i4 does have a better quality build but the range needs to be improves. Also because it is a grandcoupe there is not much trunk space even with the rear seats folded. Also there is not a front hood storage area as under the hood is not a storage space. Cannot see how BMW dropped the ball on that one. The interior is mostly out of the current 3/4 series. The new flat panel dash is slightly curved and the graphics are very sharp and well done
The IX is a really big car/SUV / station wagon. Whatever it is. Much more room than the Model X and yes better materials. However the Tesla Model X I thought had much better materials than the Tesla model 3. Might be due to the price point. All very interesting cars but I agree with most here, BMW will need to have better range on their upcoming electric. Juts my 2 cents.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
2017 X6 5.0 MSport, Carbon Black Metallic w/ black leather. All options except vented seats and B/O sound system. AKA the Tumbler
2021 M340i xdrive. Tanzanite Blue with W/Oyster with Red Calipers. All options except Adaptive M suspension, Driver Assistance Professional Package, Cooling and High Performance Tire package. AKA Blue Angel
*Retired 04/30/21: 2018 340i MSport Xdrive sedan. Glacier Silver w/Oyster. All options except active cruise control and window shades. AKA Airstream

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by NightWriter

I But let's not pretend that EVs are inevitable.

Given the announced OEM plans to drop ICE development and the various national regulatory requirements announced that will ban ICE vehicles from sale in the next decade or two, I don't think EVs are any more inevitable now than were ICE vehicles when almost everyone had a horse and buggy.


Kidding aside, I think we are in the middle of a fundamental transformation in the motor vehicle industry that will be far more obvious to future historians than many now recognize.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The little guy has to exercise some more caution in their strategic planning. ....Given the pros and cons, I can see the wisdom for the smallest OEM among these "Big 3" to make their strategic decision and task Engineering with developing the needed attributes on the more versatile platform.

On the contrary, I think BMW has made a big mistake, one which potentially can cause the demise of this famous brand.

Hyundai Motor Co has market cap of $42 billion, even smaller than BMW. What did they do? They partner with Kia to share a dedicated EV platform. And that is exactly what BMW should have done.

Even by 2025, they would use a new "Neue Klasse" but still compromised platform which needs to share with ICE, though this one is EV priority. They should have started a new EV platform now, and just let CLAR service ICE's remaining days.

And those overall market share numbers are not very relevant. The first to adopt EVs are the premium high profit margin models. The 5 series, 7 series, X5 X6 X7 buyers; the market share in this segment would be the first to take off.

Looking at what an amazing job Mercedes has done with EQS, BMW has plenty to worry.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

On the contrary, I think BMW has made a big mistake, one which potentially can cause the demise of this famous brand.

Hyundai Motor Co has market cap of $42 billion, even smaller than BMW. What did they do? They partner with Kia to share a dedicated EV platform. And that is exactly what BMW should have done.

Even by 2025, they would use a new "Neue Klasse" but still compromised platform which needs to share with ICE, though this one is EV priority. They should have started a new EV platform now, and just let CLAR service ICE's remaining days.

And those overall market share numbers are not very relevant. The first to adopt EVs are the premium high profit margin models. The 5 series, 7 series, X5 X6 X7 buyers; the market share in this segment would be the first to take off.

Looking at what an amazing job Mercedes has done with EQS, BMW has plenty to worry.

History will be the only proof of the wisdom or lack thereof of BMW's strategy. But, the comparison you suggest is not apt. Hyundai did not "partner" with Kia any more than Chevrolet "partners" with Buick. They are just two brands in the same corporation...marketing arms supported by unique sheetmetal and advertising. And, in fact, that corporation has a third brand, Genesis, to help amortize the costs over volume. They have more retail shelf space globally and more volume as middle market brands and an entry level luxury brand. BMW has....BMW.....CLAR is larger than can be shared with Mini as a corporate sibling. Hyundai/Kia/Genesis's risks are far lower than BMWAG's and they have far more "buffer" of volume to manage their business case.

I still maintain that outside of some forum enthusiasts, the general market will have no concept of versatile vs. dedicated platforms. The factors which drive the volume of decisions in the showroom are far more superficial. We will soon see if the i4 is a success or not and for what reasons. Style, price, range, and room likely will be among the top factors, for better or worse. We just all need to be patient before we can confidently predict any particular outcome.