[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Except Except there is no Cross Traffic Alert, no 360 degree Surround View, no Apple Music support/CarPlay, no blind spots indicators and you can't even set a waypoints for Tesla navigation (something my 10 years old Garmin can do).

Musk has done a really good job at selling tech that he doesn't have. i.e. Full Self Driving

Tesla is Level 2 and is not ASIL-D
Full self driving is Level 4/5 and Tesla is a long way off. Because Tesla has removed just about every knob and switch, people equate that with tech innovation.

I work in tech (30+ years designing cutting edge chips) and when it comes to Tesla I'm not super impressed.

[XtBimmer]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

Except Except there is no Cross Traffic Alert, no 360 degree Surround View, no Apple Music support/CarPlay, no blind spots indicators and you can't even set a waypoints for Tesla navigation (something my 10 years old Garmin can do).

didn't Tesla , just start getting heated steering wheels.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by XtBimmer

didn't Tesla , just start getting heated steering wheels.

For Model 3 and Model Y.
Model S and X use Mercedes steering wheel before they switched to the yoke design and always have heated steering wheels.

[Hansn]

Originally Posted by phantom701

Ohh... why is it illegal to have 4 full grown men in a Model 3? Or are you just merely joking?

Im not joking. TM3 is just about the "weakest" car you can buy in therms of load capacity, certanly the weakest in its segment. It has 388kg capasity compared to 555kg for the BMW i4. Model y is the same 390kg compared to 611kg for the VW id 4.

Then there is the ability to tow 1600kg with the i4 vs 0kg with the TM 3.

So in the end its a completly different car, where the TM3 and Y is minmaxed to the point where you are driving illegaly with 4 big men, or 5 average weight men in the cars (without any luggage).

In my mind, while the i4 is a multi platform chassis not made to be an EV, this ateast answers some of the question why TM3 is so light and the i4 is so heavy.

Originally Posted by phantom701

By the way, in the most recent report in Norway, in just a few days of Model Y launching into the country, it has already claimed EV marketshare leadership. The market has spoken despite what BMW wants people to think

I live in Norway btw, and they are currently renting the biggest trade fair venue parking lot to deliver boatloads of chinese TM Y to customers that put in orders over a year ago.
Tesla has sold well in Norway since the beginning due to no Tax/VAT on EVs compared to the worlds highest taxed ICE cars.
After the introduction of premium EVs model S and X is bearly selling this year, while Audi E Tron and Mercedes EQC has taken their place. Other EVs are also selling very well, i think the last number was that above 70% of all new cars sold are EVs, this is due to the crazy taxes on non EVs, that by the way is nothing new but something we had for 40 years (worlds most expensive cars) atleast top 5. EVs has also been driving free on toll roads/ferries, had free parking, and almost free annual road taxes in adittion to the reduced prices.

To illustrate a few price examples to show why EVs are selling in Norway and has been especially Tesla since they where first to offer drivable cars;

All prices are delivered and registered taxes paid. All cars without adding any equipment, basically the cheapest possible spec.Exchangerate at the time of writing.

Short range TM3 40371$
Long range TM3 51894$
Performance TM3 57672$

BMW 320IX Sedan 60095$
BMW M340i xDrive Sedan MHEV 95911$
BMW M3 Sedan 129760$

BMW i4 eDrive40 57962$
BMW i4 m50 63671$

Some SUV prices for fun as we also have weight taxes.

Long range TM Y 61699$
Performance TM Y 68054$

BMW iX3 68285$

BMW X3 xDrive30e 76013$ (hybrid incentives cheapest model available)
BMW X3 M40i 121826$
BMW X3M is not available, X5M however is a wooping 278333$ .. Fully specced 318256$ ..😂

This is all bone stock, no packages or additional equipment added. So tesla has alot of standard equipment ofc, and you can only imagine the price of a fully specced ICE BMW compared to a Tesla.

The taxes on ICE cars where not added as a part of the recent global warming CO2 hype, but has been part of our system as the "last soviet state" so to say for the last 40-50 years ever since it became legal for people to buy cars without applying for a permit to do so in the 50s.
EV incentives are based on not adding these taxes, and not charging 25% VAT on cars AND extra equipment added to a new car order. Pluss free toll roads, ferrys, AND parking. Norwegisn cities are locked down by tollroads btw, you cant get in, out or around without paying to fund so called "city packages" that cash in on road users to fund such things as collective traffic and bike roads and the odd road project. While almost every highway that is built is funded by tolls, you can pass as much as 10 automatic stations that scan your plate/windowchip and bill you for passing on a 1-2hour trip between cities. Tolls on certain highway stretches are close to the cost of fuel for the journey. GAS is 7-8$ Gallon here, and Diesel 6-7$. So the no pay scheeme is BIG especially for people who live in or near cities or commute to them. Without mentioning the parking ofc.

So there is more than 1 reason why norwegians are forced to buy EVs, the loosers ofc are those unable to buy a new car. 🙃 To new car buyers it does not make sense to buy ICE cars now that german manifacturers are starting to sell EVs, its been the only argument to not buy EV or lets say Tesla.. Now ofc people are also buying alot of different brands in the 25-40000$ range.

BTW if you buy a Tesla in Norway, its probably a more boring car than it is in the SF bay area. Its so common to see here that its more interesting to see a new Ford Mondeo(fusion) or VW Passat.😂

[JustChris]

Beat up the Tesla in every way you want. My post was a response to this crazy statement.

"In the end its probably going to be a way better car than tesla model 3 in every way possible when looking at every single aspect of car ownership"

If you cannot get past that as complete over exaggeration then you need help

Both have their merits. Neither is better than the other at everything. Fact.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Beat up the Tesla in every way you want. My post was a response to this crazy statement.

"In the end its probably going to be a way better car than tesla model 3 in every way possible when looking at every single aspect of car ownership"

If you cannot get past that as complete over exaggeration then you need help

Both have their merits. Neither is better than the other at everything. Fact.

We go off on a lot of tangents, but it would be difficult, if not impossible, to rationally dispute:

• Tesla was first to the BEV market in any meaningful way and has moved an industry to play catch-up
• Tesla currently has sales leadership
• Tesla currently has the most useful recharging infrastructure
• Tesla currently leads in battery development
• Tesla currently leads in electric motor development
• Tesla currently leads in BEV vehicle acceleration performance

Beyond that, everything else about Tesla can be disputed about any claim about doing an excellent job at anything. For many of us, those first six bullet points don't justify acquiring an automobile when a longer list would have so many shortfalls.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

We go off on a lot of tangents, but it would be difficult, if not impossible, to rationally dispute:

• Tesla was first to the BEV market in any meaningful way and has moved an industry to play catch-up
• Tesla currently has sales leadership
• Tesla currently has the most useful recharging infrastructure
• Tesla currently leads in battery development
• Tesla currently leads in electric motor development
• Tesla currently leads in BEV vehicle acceleration performance

Beyond that, everything else about Tesla can be disputed about any claim about doing an excellent job at anything. For many of us, those first six bullet points don't justify acquiring an automobile when a longer list would have so many shortfalls.

Pretty much agree with all of that AND I would read into that there are several, if not at least one single thing that a Tesla Model3 is better at.

Thanks.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

• Tesla was first to the BEV market in any meaningful way and has moved an industry to play catch-up
• Tesla currently has sales leadership
• Tesla currently has the most useful recharging infrastructure
• Tesla currently leads in battery development
• Tesla currently leads in electric motor development
• Tesla currently leads in BEV vehicle acceleration performance

Beyond that, everything else about Tesla can be disputed about any claim about doing an excellent job at anything. For many of us, those first six bullet points don't justify acquiring an automobile when a longer list would have so many shortfalls.

The BMW developed and manufactured electric motors aren't behind Tesla and the most advanced motor from Tesla appears in the plaid and not any TM3.

The TM3 also lacks adaptive suspension and steering.

I would also say that Rimac beats Tesla on acceleration. The current range king is Lucid in their recent LA to SF single charge drive.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

The BMW developed and manufactured electric motors aren't behind Tesla and the most advanced motor from Tesla appears in the plaid and not any TM3.

The TM3 also lacks adaptive suspension and steering.

I would also say that Rimac beats Tesla on acceleration. The current range king is Lucid in their recent LA to SF single charge drive.

If BMW was truly in that good a position now for the motor/battery powertrain, the iX3 I had considered acquiring would not have been canceled due to a non-commercially low range. We will have to wait and see what shows up in actual i4 production and has some real-world testing, not in press cars/press releases. I am hopeful, but realistic about everyone's current status. i4 is still one of my top three choices.

Adaptive suspension/steering are simply content decisions, not how well the feature was executed. We don't know how good or bad Tesla's would be, so not part of my discussion.

When Lucid actually starts production and sales, they will be assessed and that will count then. I am very optimistic about Lucid, when they finally get here, but had to count them out for me due to a conventional trunk and having only a black interior in the affordable Air model.

The market is undoubtedly dynamic and fluid. I'd never go near any current generation model of Tesla across the full range, but do have to be realistic in recognizing their (few) strengths among their many weaknesses. A new BEV leader could emerge at any time. I'd be very happy for it to be BMW, but we must see actual resuts. Going in their favor over Tesla...BMW already long-knows how to design and build entire motor vehicles very well.

[techwhiz1]

BMW makes electric motors I said nothing about batteries.

But they have announced a $24 Billion investment for cell acquisition. They are packaging the cells into batteries themselves.

As far as the adaptive steering and suspension. Tesla demonstrated and initially had it spec'd for the TM3 them removed it in Tesla fashion.

We do know that BMW knows how to execute these.
I'm clearly not a Tesla customer. I'm on a BMW forum and have not had anything but a BMW as my daily driver for 30 years.

I've been in TM3 and Model S cars multiple times and I'm just not impressed. Other than range, Tesla doesn't offer any value proposition for me. The other value propositions that BMW are important to me.
1. A head up display
2. Something that looks and feels like an instrument cluster
3. Premium interior

There are others.

[phantom701]

Originally Posted by Hansn

Tesla has sold well in Norway since the beginning due to no Tax/VAT on EVs compared to the worlds highest taxed ICE cars.
After the introduction of premium EVs model S and X is bearly selling this year, while Audi E Tron and Mercedes EQC has taken their place. Other EVs are also selling very well, i think the last number was that above 70% of all new cars sold are EVs, this is due to the crazy taxes on non EVs, that by the way is nothing new but something we had for 40 years (worlds most expensive cars) atleast top 5. EVs has also been driving free on toll roads/ferries, had free parking, and almost free annual road taxes in adittion to the reduced prices.

By the way, are you getting an i4?

Just to share with everyone here. I waited since 2017/2018 for a BMW EV, specifically the i4. I was also hoping that European Delivery would return (after COVID) so that I can go to Munich to pick up the i4 while enjoying the drive on the autobahn.

As mentioned earlier in the posts, when they first revealed the concept i4, I was ready to place my order. I didn't want another ICE looking car designed for the last generation.

I was willing to forgo many of the other benefits that come with Tesla including the technically advanced features.

BMW didn't deliver... I saw the i4 in person a few weeks ago and it reaffirm why the i4 was built overly conservative. Didn't make sense for me.

Perhaps I wait for the mid cycle refresh to see if they update it based on feedback.

I do want to remind people here that, BMW and other manufacturers didn't need to do anything if Tesla wasn't a threat (just think Nokia, BlackBerry vs. iPhone). Also, no manufacturer is responding to Toyota's hydrogen vehicle because it is a piece of crap. Toyota can't even give it away in California.

We as fans can debate ad nauseam on why BMW is superior. Ultimately, they are losing market share and had to respond. All I was saying is that they should have responded with something that leap frogs Tesla instead of continuing with yesterday's tech.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

BMW makes electric motors I said nothing about batteries.

But they have announced a $24 Billion investment for cell acquisition. They are packaging the cells into batteries themselves.

As far as the adaptive steering and suspension. Tesla demonstrated and initially had it spec'd for the TM3 them removed it in Tesla fashion.

We do know that BMW knows how to execute these.
I'm clearly not a Tesla customer. I'm on a BMW forum and have not had anything but a BMW as my daily driver for 30 years.

I've been in TM3 and Model S cars multiple times and I'm just not impressed. Other than range, Tesla doesn't offer any value proposition for me. The other value propositions that BMW are important to me.
1. A head up display
2. Something that looks and feels like an instrument cluster
3. Premium interior

There are others.

I would not buy a TM3 or TMY for the same reason. I mostly want a HUD but at a minimum I would want an instrument cluster so I don't have to (a) look to my right to see the speed and (b) not have to rely on the video display not failing (never had to do a three finger salute on a computer...yeah...right).

Now if only the charger network (aside from Tesla) were better and the cars not so ugly.

[techwhiz1]

To all the people saying BMW is old tech; how so?

iDrive 8 is new. Interface is better than Tesla. EVERYTHING on a TM3 is in center screen. Eyes off the road touch screen while driving.

BMW even has gestures.

Batteries? BMW is invested in a solid state battery company which leapfrogs current batteries. Solid state isn't here yet but will be tested next year.
https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/09/13/b...m-solid-power/

Like I said already "Full Self Driving" is hype at best; dangerous at its worse because people actually think it is. It is not. It's Level 2 and full self driving is Level 5.

BMW and others are at the same level they just don't do the dangerous hype.

The i4 is heavy, no doubt but once again at least half that 800lbs extra comes from features that TM3 doesn't have.
- No eight way adjustable seats
- No adaptive steering
- No adaptive suspension
- No Head up display
- No hatch
- No sunroof (I prefer a sunroof over glass panorama)

I have a laundry list of TM3 don't haves.

[phantom701]

BMW is old tech because compared to back in 2005, they were leading the world in the most innovative tech which deserved a premium price. Not any more.

Gesture is pure gimmick. I know because I never use it.

I read the article. Solid state battery production is not until 2025... will it leap frog, maybe? But I was talking about leap frogging now.

The large i8 screen is just that, a large screen. What comes with that large screen?? Same old tech with the additional of Apple Car Play integration. What else? Nothing. I saw the vehicle in person and it looks like one of the Korean manufacturers who also has the large screen and may be implemented much better than BMW. Plus, the implementation of the screen directly in front of you is so painfully early 2010s. Audi has done a much better job in that regard.

If you really want to compare, here are things that Tesla has:
- Tesla has 12-way power adjustable seats, so you are right, not 8-way
- Electronically adjustable steering
- Premium speakers that are better than anything in the market. BMW requires $875 for HK.
- Innovative air conditioning.
- Biodefense mode. Wild fire in California!!!!
- Auto move seats and steering before and after vehicle entries
- Software is updated regularly
- Frunk
- Huge storage capacity
- Over the air updates. BMW doesn't know how and it is still a marketing term instead of reality.

The other Tesla fanboys can also come up with a huge laundry list of features BMW don't have. One thing for sure, there are more videos online talking about how excited people are with EVs. People are genuinely crazy about these cars.

NO one is judging you for getting an i4M. I sure am not. All I'm saying is that BMW over hyped its concept car where it disappointed many of us who decided to abandon BMW. Many of us are seeing BMW repeating the same mistakes like Nokia. I bet you BMW HQ is painfully aware which is why they are reacting.

By the way, you really need to study up on AI. I happened to be in the AI industry with multiple Stanford, Berkeley, CMU PhD experts working with me. I'm telling you that what Tesla is doing is leaps and bounds above the old tech. Is it Level 5? I agree that it's not. Perhaps not even Level 3. But it is making huge stride. Tesla can continuously upgrade the brain of the cars where as BMW will always be STUCK and require a visit to the dealerships.

Or at the very least, watch this video if you really care to learn. The other manufacturers are shitting their pants:

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by phantom701

The large i8 screen is just that, a large screen. What comes with that large screen?? Same old tech with the additional of Apple Car Play integration. What else? Nothing.

But it works, and works well.
BMW's CarPlay implementation is the best in the world, and I WANT CARPLAY, which Tesla doesn't offer.

What other "new tech" for the display do you want?
I mean Tesla's navigation doesn't even allow waypoints input, there is no 360 degree camera, no front/rear panoramic view (which I find very useful), and it can't even play Apple Music (no more bluetooth audio after using CarPlay for me).
So for me, BMW's "old tech" does a lot more for me than Tesla display. And yes, I prefer a screen directly in front of me. Even though you said "2010s" but remember Model S and Model X also have screen directly in front of you. The lack of such screens in Model 3/Y is purely cost saving, not an advancement in design.

- Over the air updates. BMW doesn't know how and it is still a marketing term instead of reality.

What are you talking about? My X5 has had 3 or 4 OTA updates and has been working fine.

By the way, you really need to study up on AI.

For sure, AI is the future.
But unfortunately, it is just that, the future.

We are no where near that stage where it would reliable enough for FSD.
And Tesla has been selling FSD option for years without FSD feature.
I would feel safer in a radar/LIDAR based system than a radarless vision only "future" AI system at this current state of technology.

When Tesla cannot even get an adaptive cruise control system working without the tons of reports of phantom braking, how can you trust such a system for FSD? Why would anyone be "shitting their plans" when FSD won't get approved for years for anyone including Tesla?

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by phantom701

BMW is old tech because compared to back in 2005, they were leading the world in the most innovative tech which deserved a premium price. Not any more.

Gesture is pure gimmick. I know because I never use it.

I read the article. Solid state battery production is not until 2025... will it leap frog, maybe? But I was talking about leap frogging now.

The large i8 screen is just that, a large screen. What comes with that large screen?? Same old tech with the additional of Apple Car Play integration. What else? Nothing. I saw the vehicle in person and it looks like one of the Korean manufacturers who also has the large screen and may be implemented much better than BMW. Plus, the implementation of the screen directly in front of you is so painfully early 2010s. Audi has done a much better job in that regard.

If you really want to compare, here are things that Tesla has:
- Tesla has 12-way power adjustable seats, so you are right, not 8-way
- Electronically adjustable steering
- Premium speakers that are better than anything in the market. BMW requires $875 for HK.
- Innovative air conditioning.
- Biodefense mode. Wild fire in California!!!!
- Auto move seats and steering before and after vehicle entries
- Software is updated regularly
- Frunk
- Huge storage capacity
- Over the air updates. BMW doesn't know how and it is still a marketing term instead of reality.

The other Tesla fanboys can also come up with a huge laundry list of features BMW don't have. One thing for sure, there are more videos online talking about how excited people are with EVs. People are genuinely crazy about these cars.

NO one is judging you for getting an i4M. I sure am not. All I'm saying is that BMW over hyped its concept car where it disappointed many of us who decided to abandon BMW. Many of us are seeing BMW repeating the same mistakes like Nokia. I bet you BMW HQ is painfully aware which is why they are reacting.

By the way, you really need to study up on AI. I happened to be in the AI industry with multiple Stanford, Berkeley, CMU PhD experts working with me. I'm telling you that what Tesla is doing is leaps and bounds above the old tech. Is it Level 5? I agree that it's not. Perhaps not even Level 3. But it is making huge stride. Tesla can continuously upgrade the brain of the cars where as BMW will always be STUCK and require a visit to the dealerships.

Or at the very least, watch this video if you really care to learn. The other manufacturers are shitting their pants:

The i4 has more storage and better load capacity.
You haven't specifically told me where BMW is lagging behind in tech.
I'm currently driving a 2022 740.
Plenty of integrated tech ->
1. Driver attention and warning
2. Over the air updates does work
3. Adaptive high beams (but that's been around a while)
4. BMW does electric adjustable steering, but not sure about the i4. That would be a packaging decision.
5. The i4 has plenty of storage, just no frunk.
6. Until you hear the i4 sound, you can't claim superiority of a TM3. Frankly my 335i with Logic sounds better than the TM3 I was in.

But we can argue value proposition all day and if the TM3 meets yours, that's fine. Once again people coming to a BMW forum and touting the virtues of a TM3 is going to go over about as well as a fart in church.

How can I trust a manufacturer that can even get it's panel gaps right?

As far as my knowledge of AI.
I did my first AI project more than 30 years ago when most people didn't know what AI was.
I'm a senior member of the IEEE.
I have been doing fault tolerant design including things like TMR for high performance and high availability computing for 30 years.
I have worked as a consultant on automotive processors that include functionality for ASIL-D. I have designed processor extensions and platforms for autonomous driving.
I have been through training for ASIL by Exida and TUV. (Certified)
I have read the ISO-26262 documentation on ASIL and understand it.

Up until March of this year, my job was to tell other people how not to mess up chips that do this stuff. I have an extensive resume that includes AI and Fault Tolerant computing which is necessary for ASIL-C/D and Level 4-5 autonomous systems.

Being able to drive the car is one thing.
Recovering from hardware/software faults that could kill people is a different ball game and Tesla isn't close in hardware or software.

Tesla is not leaps and bounds over Mobileye, GM Cruise division and others. Elon Musk is good overhyping Level 2 as "Full Self Driving".

[phantom701]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Tesla is not leaps and bounds over Mobileye, GM Cruise division and others. Elon Musk is good overhyping Level 2 as "Full Self Driving".

Sorry, this last statement only showed me what you really don't understand. No point of debating you. Mobileye is a joke and they are dead, I can guarantee you. (Sorry, do you work for Mobileeye)

BTW, let's move off Tesla. I don't know your obsession on Tesla.

Let's go with Ford F150. This is the perfect example on how a manufacturer knows how to build the right EV. The Ford F150 Lightning is the perfect truck EV. It has so many capabilities leveraging EV tech that no one else could. BMW should have done that.

So BMW is way behind on tech. You started out comparing the i4 then telling us that the 7 series has more advanced tech. I would say BMW 7 series tech is still behind. I hate the driving experience of the 7 series. It's a freaking boat.

One final note. Why are you so freaking emotional about this topic???!!! I offered an idea and you are bent out of shape and kept obsessing about Tesla??!! Go enjoy your i4M. I will get to play with it when the car arrives. But I've seen the car in person and it's not for me.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by phantom701

BMW is old tech because compared to back in 2005, they were leading the world in the most innovative tech which deserved a premium price. Not any more.

I did buy a 2001 E39 brand new and deliberately custom ordered with minimum techs, of which BMW did charge very high premiums over BOM costs.

In that regard, BMW(and everyone else) still does the same type of premium pricing on fancy techs, but the bread and butter car tech is quite reasonably priced.

E.g. my lightly optioned 2021 330i is cheaper than 2021 Accord 2.0T top trims! For anyone who pays attention to the value propositions of the 2 cars, it is a no-brainer to go with 330i for its long lists of attributes:

1. 50/50 RWD
2. ZF 8AT + BMW tuning
3. nostalgic BMW feel and handling
4. 42mpg on hwy

Also LED adaptive headlights + Nav + LDW + front collision + sport seats + anthracite headliner + sports rims are standard.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Being able to drive the car is one thing.
Recovering from hardware/software faults that could kill people is a different ball game and Tesla isn't close in hardware or software.

Tesla is not leaps and bounds over Mobileye, GM Cruise division and others. Elon Musk is good overhyping Level 2 as "Full Self Driving".

My observations among friends are such that the EE/Physics folks usually can see through the cost analysis and Tesla's marketing, while the CS/MBA/marketing folks usually are dazed by blink-blink techs.

From my perspectives, Tesla does hit its weight and efficiency targets to leapfrog the industry at the expense of battery safety that most non-EE/Physics cannot fully understand.

In general, I do see the EV industry leaping too fast into subpar techs that need significant improvements(e.g. 5x density) to make the EV push viable.

It is what it is.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by phantom701

Sorry, this last statement only showed me what you really don't understand. No point of debating you. Mobileye is a joke and they are dead, I can guarantee you. (Sorry, do you work for Mobileeye)

BTW, let's move off Tesla. I don't know your obsession on Tesla.

Let's go with Ford F150. This is the perfect example on how a manufacturer knows how to build the right EV. The Ford F150 Lightning is the perfect truck EV. It has so many capabilities leveraging EV tech that no one else could. BMW should have done that.

So BMW is way behind on tech. You started out comparing the i4 then telling us that the 7 series has more advanced tech. I would say BMW 7 series tech is still behind. I hate the driving experience of the 7 series. It's a freaking boat.

One final note. Why are you so freaking emotional about this topic???!!! I offered an idea and you are bent out of shape and kept obsessing about Tesla??!! Go enjoy your i4M. I will get to play with it when the car arrives. But I've seen the car in person and it's not for me.

No I don't work for Mobileye.

I don't have an obsession with Tesla. I didn't start the thread but the comparison of the i4 and the TM3 keeps coming up. People also keep talking about how advanced Tesla is compared to the i4 and I was just pointing out that it's really good hype by Elon.
This thread has been hijacked from how a person would have designed the i4 to various individuals extolling the virtues of the TM3 and how it's better than the i4.

I was talking about BMW tech in general. All Tesla tech isn't in the TM3.
I never said the driving experience of the 7 was great, but you have your opinion and I have mine.

I like the Ford and Rivian trucks. They stand to dominate the market if they get delivered on time.

I'm not bent out of shape.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/01...tels-mobileye/
MobilEye has technology in approximately 40 Million cars.
MobilEye has a redundant system that is needed for Level 4/5 and ASIL-D.

Tesla will not be able to deliver on FSD with camera alone. The technology doesn't exist today.
Cruise and Waymo have a different approach.

"Sorry, this last statement only showed me what you really don't understand. No point of debating you."

I don't understand what?
I don't understand AI technology?
I don't understand chip development?
I don't understand ASIL or ADAS?

My last statement on Tesla is very accurate; it's Level 2 and is far from FSD. That's not speculation; it's fact.
For it to be full self driving it must be redundant at it's core. It needs to have redundancy in vision sensors, whatever they may be.
If a Tesla camera fails, you need to have a second camera or sensor that can take over and make sure the car doesn't crash.
If a Tesla camera goes blind, there is no redundancy. That alone makes FSD from Tesla a myth.
There must be redundancy in the sensors.
You need both redundancy and diversity in silicon implementation.

Tell me what I don't understand? I have offered up my credentials:
Advanced degrees in EE and Computer Engineering.
Senior Member of the IEEE
Sole inventor on Patents and IP
Training from Exida and TUV for ASIL and ISO26262
30 years designing chips and managing chip design groups for everything from super computers to cell phones.
I am fluent in the following hardware design languages Verilog, System Verilog and VHDL.
I program in C, Objective-C, C++, Python, Perl and TCL.

For years I was paid consultant to tell people how NOT to f*ck up chips. Including ADAS.
Latest chip I designed was 7nm TSMC.

When you start dismissing people telling them they don't understand; you should be able to back it up.
So please tell me what my feeble mind doesn't understand? I'm waiting.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

My observations among friends are such that the EE/Physics folks usually can see through the cost analysis and Tesla's marketing, while the CS/MBA/marketing folks usually are dazed by blink-blink techs.

From my perspectives, Tesla does hit its weight and efficiency targets to leapfrog the industry at the expense of battery safety that most non-EE/Physics cannot fully understand.

In general, I do see the EV industry leaping too fast into subpar techs that need significant improvements(e.g. 5x density) to make the EV push viable.

It is what it is.

I fully agree.
Pushing tech like it really is FSD or Auto Pilot gets luddites killed.
Marketing is fine but when people start behaving like the marketing is real; it gets really dangerous, really fast.

My favorite quote of the week was this after an eval of Tesla FSD:
"It's like a 13 year old that stole the keys to the family car and is trying to drive down a crowded street for the first time"

I'm one of those EE's that has worked on ADAS/ASIL and that's why it bugs me so much.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I fully agree.
Pushing tech like it really is FSD or Auto Pilot gets luddites killed.
Marketing is fine but when people start behaving like the marketing is real; it gets really dangerous, really fast.

My favorite quote of the week was this after an eval of Tesla FSD:
"It's like a 13 year old that stole the keys to the family car and is trying to drive down a crowded street for the first time"

I'm one of those EE's that has worked on ADAS/ASIL and that's why it bugs me so much.

It is funny to read other posters thinking Tesla's latest FSD efforts are ground breaking.

But it gets serious to realize how dangerous such uninformed trust can lead to overconfidence of Tesla drivers on the road next to me ....

Simply put, the latest AI HW + SW is around the cognitive capabilities of a 1-year old.