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      09-16-2021, 12:48 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
The giveaway here in his awkward writing was the jumbled linkage of "platform" to "basically skateboards" which he then goes on to define as including a battery and wheels! "Basically" is the clue of the unsteady logic in writing or speech. BTW, no one has ever defined any platform anywhere as including the actual wheels, as he does.
I think Elon Musk did talk about Tesla platform as skateboard + battery.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/teslas-...bsolete-again/
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      09-16-2021, 01:15 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
I think Elon Musk did talk about Tesla platform as skateboard + battery.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/teslas-...bsolete-again/
The steak dinner analogy is helpful. The innovation here is the use of the actual batteries as the platform rather than placing batteries on top of the platform. This should help save weight if batteries alone are less than batteries plus platform.
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      09-16-2021, 01:21 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
The steak dinner analogy is helpful. The innovation here is the use of the actual batteries as the platform rather than placing batteries on top of the platform. This should help save weight if batteries alone are less than batteries plus platform.
Correct, the next generation will see front and rear subframe bolted directly to battery pack.

This really doubles down on battery pack + reinforcement rails taking the blunt of any collision impact, and/or battery chemistry that has no thermal runaway. It is all good if it does work.

That also may mean any side impact(even small ones) can require replacing the whole battery($$$$$), so hopefully Tesla thinks through the accessibility and serviceability aspects.
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      09-16-2021, 01:34 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Correct, the next generation will see front and rear subframe bolted directly to battery pack.

This really doubles down on battery pack + reinforcement rails taking the blunt of any collision impact, and/or battery chemistry that has no thermal runaway. It is all good if it does work.

That also may mean any side impact(even small ones) can require replacing the whole battery($$$$$), so hopefully Tesla thinks through the accessibility and serviceability aspects.
Your points are excellent again, and I am not overloaded with optimism based on history.

Automotive News publishes a "Product Pipeline" section, and it shows no new generation products for Tesla through 2025, so any such change remains far off. I think we can all either keep what we have or do a 3 year new EV lease cycle before missing any such new developments, which may coincide with solid state batteries by then.
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      09-16-2021, 01:58 PM   #71
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fsfikke View Post
Inexperience? You know they've been making EV's since 2009? It's a design choice to create models that customers can purchase with whatever drivetrain they'd like, petrol/diesel/PHEV or BEV. Which I think is a better strategy than creating futuristic BEV-only models. It does take a hit on weight, but opens up a much bigger market for a model than for instance a Tesla model 3.
I also am amused at all the self-proclaimed expert automotive body and structural engineers we have on this forum! I have yet to see a comparable tear-down comparison which reveals weight of the actual platform (floorpan, cowl, front rails, etc.), weight of batteries, weight of body-in-white (steel vs aluminum sheetmetal for others?), weight of body hardware (hatch?), etc. All the armchair quarterback engineers here can pontificate on how BMW could have done "better". I am content to wait and see the evidence once presented.
The cars weight is heavy, is that evidence?
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      09-16-2021, 02:00 PM   #72
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Quote:
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The cars weight is heavy, is that evidence?
Yes, evidence of the weight of the entire car. It is not conclusive about the relative weight of the platform structure. The total weight may arise from a variety or combination of sources. We donít yet know. That was the point of the discussion.
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      09-16-2021, 02:06 PM   #73
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why does I4 weight so much?

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Originally Posted by fsfikke View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
It's actually pretty simple: the I4's weight is a result of its designers' and manufacturer's inexperience with EV platforms.

The good (?) thing is that BMW isn't alone in this - all of the legacy manufacturers' current EV offerings are overweight compared to the state-of-the-art EV chassis on the market, and this has nothing to do with crashworthiness or luxury trappings.

They'll figure it out, eventually.
Inexperience? You know they've been making EV's since 2009? It's a design choice to create models that customers can purchase with whatever drivetrain they'd like, petrol/diesel/PHEV or BEV. Which I think is a better strategy than creating futuristic BEV-only models. It does take a hit on weight, but opens up a much bigger market for a model than for instance a Tesla model 3.
This
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      09-16-2021, 02:53 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Your points are excellent again, and I am not overloaded with optimism based on history.

Automotive News publishes a "Product Pipeline" section, and it shows no new generation products for Tesla through 2025, so any such change remains far off. I think we can all either keep what we have or do a 3 year new EV lease cycle before missing any such new developments, which may coincide with solid state batteries by then.
Yes it does appear 3-year EV lease is prudent at this point, for one it will really suck to not get the latest EV tech with 5x density and improved charge time and extended range and improved miles/kWh and reduced curb weight , etc, etc, right?
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      09-16-2021, 03:06 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Model S plaid will be in 500-mile range too. They all tend to hit that range by shear size and weight.
Nope, the Plaid is available and its rated range is 348-396 miles, depending on which wheels and tires itís equipped with.

https://www.tesla.com/models

That said, its battery is also significantly smaller than the Lucid Dreamís battery, soÖ

Whatís more significant though is the the Air will be the first sedan of its size to approach or beat the Tesla Model Sís efficiency figures:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find...44492&id=43517

Last edited by ZCD1; 09-16-2021 at 03:16 PM..
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      09-16-2021, 03:25 PM   #76
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Nope, the Plaid is available and its rated range is 348-396 miles, depending on which wheels and tires itís equipped with.
You are correct, it should be Model 3 Plaid plus that hits 500+ miles, but Musk did cancel that a few months ago.
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      09-16-2021, 04:55 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Nope, the Plaid is available and its rated range is 348-396 miles, depending on which wheels and tires it’s equipped with.
You are correct, it should be Model 3 Plaid plus that hits 500+ miles, but Musk did cancel that a few months ago.
Yep, Lucid is king of range right now with no sedan even close. Lucid costs Model S coin and is too rich for my blood.

Funny though when you look at the figures the standard i4 it is on par with the longest range TM3

i4 WTLP is 316-366 and the TM3 is 254-348.
So I guess the rule should be if you want i4 range to compete with a TM3, then stay away from what looks like the really fun i4 M50.

Just put a level 2.charger at home and get the car.you think will be the most fun. I never drove my 335i more than 300 miles in a day. That is over 11 years of use. I always drove the minivan or SUV for long trips.
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      09-17-2021, 12:14 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
Just put a level 2.charger at home and get the car.you think will be the most fun. I never drove my 335i more than 300 miles in a day. That is over 11 years of use. I always drove the minivan or SUV for long trips.
I do have L2 at garage in preparation for a Model 3 SR back in April, but Tesla had no car so I test drove G20 and grabbed one that just arrived at dealer.

My previous F30 328i was sold at 8.5 years with 80k miles, I was ready to take that car to 15 years/150000 miles to run down the emission warranty, but the inflated used car prices were too enticing to miss.

Thinking back it probably is a good thing to skip Tesla for now, and exited F30 early to escape N20/N26 timing chain woes.
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      09-17-2021, 01:05 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
Just put a level 2.charger at home and get the car.you think will be the most fun. I never drove my 335i more than 300 miles in a day. That is over 11 years of use. I always drove the minivan or SUV for long trips.
I do have L2 at garage in preparation for a Model 3 SR back in April, but Tesla had no car so I test drove G20 and grabbed one that just arrived at dealer.

My previous F30 328i was sold at 8.5 years with 80k miles, I was ready to take that car to 15 years/150000 miles to run down the emission warranty, but the inflated used car prices were too enticing to miss.

Thinking back it probably is a good thing to skip Tesla for now, and exited F30 early to escape N20/N26 timing chain woes.
So exactly what did you get? Color, engine, etc.
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      09-17-2021, 01:57 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
So exactly what did you get? Color, engine, etc.
I bought a 2021 330i base alpine white with B46 engine for $37k(MSRP %43k) + tax + fees. It is base with just PDC + heated seats.

Boilerplate stats are:
  1. 254HP/292lb-ft
  2. 3600lb curb weight
  3. 0-60 5.4 seconds(official 5.6 seconds)
  4. mpg 30 city/40 hwy per my driving style

But its greatest attribute is 50/50 + classic feel and handling that is somewhere between E39 and E46. Usually Model 3/Accord 2.0T are 5 car lengths behind after cloverleafs.

Unlike E46/E90(and most of F30) days, US-spec 330i base includes these standard options in MSRP price to match with competitions:
  1. moonroof
  2. factory alarm
  3. Android Auto/Apple CarPlay ready
  4. 8-way sports seat
  5. leather sports steering wheel
  6. 18-inch V-spoke bi-color orbit grey 780 rims
  7. anthracite headliner
  8. auto climate control
  9. HiFi(non-HK) stereo
  10. 1-year Sirius
  11. backup camera(required by law)
  12. LED adaptive headlight + auto high beam + DRL
  13. Navigation
  14. lane departure warning + steering intervention
  15. front collision warning + city braking
  16. rain sensor wiper, garage door opener, auto-dimming mirrors
  17. fold down seats
  18. wood trims
  19. sport line decors
  20. Connected Package Pro
  21. BMW Assist eCall, BMW Tele-Services
  22. Hands free BT and USB audio
  23. dual storage AGM + Li ion(not as good as mild hybrid of M340i)

M-sport package with 704 suspension is $3800 MSRP.

Blind spot detection, active cruise control, parking assist (those are the ADAS's available in i4) are extra $$$$ packages, but some are no longer offered due to chip shortage.

Also comfort access now does not come with trunk kick, passenger seat has no lumbar support nor width adjust, yikes.

Latest production only has digital gauges with MSRP bumped up by $700. Some do like digital gauges, but base analog gauges in mine are very nice.

Last edited by bavarianride; 09-17-2021 at 08:18 PM..
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      09-18-2021, 01:15 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz1 View Post
So exactly what did you get? Color, engine, etc.
I bought a 2021 330i base alpine white with B46 engine for $37k(MSRP %43k) + tax + fees. It is base with just PDC + heated seats.

Boilerplate stats are:
  1. 254HP/292lb-ft
  2. 3600lb curb weight
  3. 0-60 5.4 seconds(official 5.6 seconds)
  4. mpg 30 city/40 hwy per my driving style

But its greatest attribute is 50/50 + classic feel and handling that is somewhere between E39 and E46. Usually Model 3/Accord 2.0T are 5 car lengths behind after cloverleafs.

Unlike E46/E90(and most of F30) days, US-spec 330i base includes these standard options in MSRP price to match with competitions:
  1. moonroof
  2. factory alarm
  3. Android Auto/Apple CarPlay ready
  4. 8-way sports seat
  5. leather sports steering wheel
  6. 18-inch V-spoke bi-color orbit grey 780 rims
  7. anthracite headliner
  8. auto climate control
  9. HiFi(non-HK) stereo
  10. 1-year Sirius
  11. backup camera(required by law)
  12. LED adaptive headlight + auto high beam + DRL
  13. Navigation
  14. lane departure warning + steering intervention
  15. front collision warning + city braking
  16. rain sensor wiper, garage door opener, auto-dimming mirrors
  17. fold down seats
  18. wood trims
  19. sport line decors
  20. Connected Package Pro
  21. BMW Assist eCall, BMW Tele-Services
  22. Hands free BT and USB audio
  23. dual storage AGM + Li ion(not as good as mild hybrid of M340i)

M-sport package with 704 suspension is $3800 MSRP.

Blind spot detection, active cruise control, parking assist (those are the ADAS's available in i4) are extra $$$$ packages, but some are no longer offered due to chip shortage.

Also comfort access now does not come with trunk kick, passenger seat has no lumbar support nor width adjust, yikes.

Latest production only has digital gauges with MSRP bumped up by $700. Some do like digital gauges, but base analog gauges in mine are very nice.
Nice.

I'm just dying to finally order and get in the queue.
I'm in position number one at my dealer.

Not sure where that puts me for overall queue
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      09-21-2021, 08:22 AM   #82
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Back to the OP's question - this is a likely scenario:

1) BMW using a shared architecture for the platform means the architecture is NOT optimized for EV use.
2) This means that the platform is heavier than it would likely otherwise have needed to be.
3) Like all of the legacy Euro brands, BMW is not developing its own EV drivetrain in house from scratch. This likely means that it's not optimized for use in this vehicle (see Lucid, Tesla for examples of such optimization).
4) Heavier weight and lack of optimization means the platform is less efficient overall than dedicated EVs.
5) Less efficient + heavy weight means a bigger, heavier battery is required to achieve competitive range.
6) Result: - I4 (and all of the other shared-platform EVs currently on offer) are overweight by comparison with dedicated EVs.

Jason Cammisa explained the difference in EV design approach quite succinctly back in 2019:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ore-than-ever/
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      09-21-2021, 08:41 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
OP's post#1 says 4800lb, which is the curb weight, and that is published data from BMW that does not need BOM nor teardown details.

Focusing the discussion towards weights of floorpan, cowl, front rails, etc. per your definition of platform appears to be missing the point, namely, that hefty 4800lb likely does not help fuel efficiency.

E.g. BMW publishes 300 miles of range for 81.5kWh(usable), or 3.65 miles/kWh.

The i3@3000lb with 30kWh(usable) goes 150 miles, or 5 miles/kWh.

Tesla Model 3 is around 4 miles/KWh, or 26kWh/100 miles per EPA.

So yes, BMW has a dedicated EV platform (i3 with CFRP) that are 20-25% more efficient than Model 3, while BMW's hybrid platform(e.g. i4 ) is not based on published numbers.
Not quite on the i3, the i3 that does 150 miles (153 per EPA) has a 38kWh battery (useable, thereabouts). I have attached a screengrab from EPA.

Therefore efficiency is still not quite at Tesla levels, but we are comparing an 8 year old EV with state of the art so not totally fair.

--------

I don't think weight is that big of a deal especially for highway driving but in answer to the OP, as has already been said it is not a dedicated platform it also has a bigger battery than for example Tesla Model 3 LR.
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      09-21-2021, 11:28 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomerlot View Post
Not quite on the i3, the i3 that does 150 miles (153 per EPA) has a 38kWh battery (useable, thereabouts). I have attached a screengrab from EPA.

Therefore efficiency is still not quite at Tesla levels, but we are comparing an 8 year old EV with state of the art so not totally fair.
Another source insideevs ran tests on i3 and showed 3-4 miles/kWh(24-35kWh/100 miles) dependent on hwy speed, so yes it is less than 5 miles/kWh.

https://insideevs.com/news/453108/bm...ge-test-bjorn/

The best Model 3 LR efficiency shown on insdieevs is around 350 miles/82kWh, or 23.4kWh/100 miles.
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      09-21-2021, 04:08 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Back to the OP's question - this is a likely scenario:

1) BMW using a shared architecture for the platform means the architecture is NOT optimized for EV use.
2) This means that the platform is heavier than it would likely otherwise have needed to be.
3) Like all of the legacy Euro brands, BMW is not developing its own EV drivetrain in house from scratch. This likely means that it's not optimized for use in this vehicle (see Lucid, Tesla for examples of such optimization).
4) Heavier weight and lack of optimization means the platform is less efficient overall than dedicated EVs.
5) Less efficient + heavy weight means a bigger, heavier battery is required to achieve competitive range.
6) Result: - I4 (and all of the other shared-platform EVs currently on offer) are overweight by comparison with dedicated EVs.

Jason Cammisa explained the difference in EV design approach quite succinctly back in 2019:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ore-than-ever/
BMW is using in house designed and manufactured motors in the i4.

The battery pack is also designed and built by BMW. They source the cells.

The platform is shared and is the CLAR platform.
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      09-21-2021, 05:45 PM   #86
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Quote:
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BMW is using in house designed and manufactured motors in the i4.

The battery pack is also designed and built by BMW. They source the cells.

The platform is shared and is the CLAR platform.
Right...and all the wasted electrons speculating about the actual and specific weight effect of a versatile platform is meritless until the first teardown of an entire vehicle. Could be heavier, could be no different, could be lighter. We don't yet know.
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      09-22-2021, 05:17 AM   #87
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If people are interested, this is how the i4 M50 is packed under the hood

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      09-22-2021, 09:35 AM   #88
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That's a lot of plumbing. You can clearly see how BMW fit the equipment into the original ICE chassis. Surprising how the space is completely utilized (thus no Frunk).
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