[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

Your referenced article should break down sales by geographic region, as I'm sure it's Cali that has the overwhelming majority of EV sales. The reminder of us do not live in areas that support EV charging on a mass scale.

This is completely wrong.

I live in Houston. It's the oil capital of the country. Chevron Phillips is in my building and Repsol's US HQ is in the building next door. We share a parking garage.

In addition, Houston is like LA - total sprawl city. It's geographically huge. We have three ring roads around the city, the largest of which, when it is completed in a few years, will be 180 miles. We also have super cheap gas. By all rights, all of that should add up to a low EV take rate.

And yet, when I drive down from the top floor of my parking garage at work, I see no fewer than 4 Model 3's, at least one Model X and usually a few Model S's. And driving around the town where I live, if I don't see 5 Teslas each trip, it's an abberation. Not to mention Leafs, i3's, Huyndai / Kia EV's, Volts, Bolts etc. EV's are everywhere here.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

Until there is a legit full on M, it's smoke and mirrors with BMW slapping on a M60 badge or what ever marketing. Battery technology will have drastically improve to track a EV M4 and not wait 6 hrs or have ever long the batteries take to charge these days in-between sessions.

Why are you judging an EV by this parameter? Do you also judge a Chevy Tahoe by it's ability to track? Or judge an 8 series by it's ability to hold a family? How about a Corolla's ability to tow?

You're viewing the EV through the lens of what YOU want in a BMW, but in reality, BMW makes plenty of ICE products that aren't applicable to what you said either...unless you think the 2 series Active Tourer MPV makes a good track car.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by hugo_nz

Fact checks:

1) it's on a new, bespoke platform

2) back to back comparisons between the iX and my e-tron show the iX to be more efficient in terms of economy

3) why is everyone so obsessed with the frunk.

Originally Posted by nosnoop

I think BMW has proved you wrong.

Not wrong, "fact checks" are, and here's why:

(1.) "Efficiency"
I'm talking about a different efficiency (i.e. tear-downs), but I also wasn't clear on that so my bad. Since you mentioned it though, the efficiency you're talking about can be tweaked with software at the expense of battery power/range/longevity/charging. This is the infamous "capacity holdback" in order to make 8 year warranties, etc ... but the bottom line is that's an apples to aardvarks comparo.

What I'm talking about is capital efficiency; Tesla has the highest margin in the history of scaled auto manufacturing and is only getting better whereas BMW is highly likely to be losing money on their EVs (given they won't tell us AFAIK, but show me the numbers if they're out there!).

However even if they aren't selling EVs underwater we can simply look at BMW's EBIT margin, ~11% and Tesla's ~12% and, of course, Tesla has very little debt whereas BMW has quite a lot of debt. Further, we can expect BMW's margins to drop as they sell more EVs underwater.

(2.) Frunks & "Bespoke" Platforms
The Frunk is your clue as to whether a BEV is engineered clean sheet or not because it's about assembly (reuse of ICE lines), parts (reuse of ICE parts), and engineering.

The iX was built to be "highly compatible" with BMW's ICE CLAR platform, it shares parts with ICE CLAR vehicles, and is built alongside ICE in the Dingolfing plant.

This is why it's a money-losing compromised product to Ibiza's point: the iX is designed to be efficient in re-using ICE parts on an ICE assembly line, NOT designed & engineered TO BE A GREAT EV.

That's doesn't mean the iX is a bad vehicle or product, but it does mean it's not the best one BMW can make, and it also means it's highly inefficient in terms of parts & assembly.

As I pointed out, Tesla is already beating BMW on margin BEV vs ICE ... BMW will have to completely re-engineer the iX to get to Tesla margins AND a great product ... and when they do, it'll for sure have a FRUNK.

(3.) Profit
Tesla & Ford are the only 2 auto makers profitably making BEVs at scale. It's one thing to make a BEV, it's a key thing to make a great BEV at a profit.

To do that, BMW will have to redesign its BEV products ... and these existing products will look laughable with all the wasted hosing, wiring, assembly, etc

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Not wrong, "fact checks" are, and here's why:

(1.) "Efficiency"
I'm talking about a different efficiency (i.e. tear-downs), but I also wasn't clear on that so my bad. Since you mentioned it though, the efficiency you're talking about can be tweaked with software at the expense of battery power/range/longevity. This is the infamous "capacity holdback" in order to make 8 year warranties, etc ... but the bottom line is that's an apples to aardvarks comparo.

What I'm talking about is capital efficiency; Tesla has the highest margin in the history of scaled auto manufacturing and is only getting better whereas BMW is highly likely to be losing money on their EVs (given they won't tell us AFAIK, but show me the numbers if they're out there!).

However even if they aren't selling EVs underwater we can simply look at BMW's EBIT margin, ~11% and Tesla's ~12% and, of course, Tesla has very little debt whereas BMW has quite a lot of debt. Further, we can expect BMW's margins to drop as they sell more EVs underwater.

(2.) Frunks & "Bespoke" Platforms
The Frunk is your clue as to whether a BEV is engineered clean sheet or not because it's about assembly (reuse of ICE lines), parts (reuse of ICE parts), and engineering.

The iX was built to be "highly compatible" with BMW's ICE CLAR platform, it shares parts with ICE CLAR vehicles, and is built alongside ICE in the Dingolfing plant.

This is why it's a money-losing compromised product to Ibiza's point: the iX is designed to be efficient in re-using ICE parts on an ICE assembly line, NOT designed & engineered TO BE A GREAT EV.

That's doesn't mean the iX is a bad vehicle or product, but it does mean it's not the best one BMW can make, and it also means it's highly inefficient in terms of parts & assembly.

As I pointed out, Tesla is already beating BMW on margin BEV vs ICE ... BMW will have to completely re-engineer the iX to get to Tesla margins AND a great product ... and when they do, it'll for sure have a FRUNK.

(3.) Profit
Tesla & Ford are the only 2 auto makers profitably making BEVs at scale. It's one thing to make a BEV, it's a key thing to make a great BEV at a profit.

To do that, BMW will have to redesign its BEV products ... and these existing products will look laughable with all the wasted hosing, wiring, assembly, etc

You seem to think that the Frunk is some arbiter of how dedicated an EV platform is.

The EQS has zero frunk, and it's on a dedicated EV platform.
The Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 have near as damnit no frunk, and both of them are on a completely ground up, dedicated EV platform.

Sometimes the frunk loses out due to aerodynamics or packaging reasons, and it's not because it's on a legacy platform.

Here's a good explanation:

This may be a new channel, but Alex Dykes also runs Alex on Autos, and he's been at the game for a number of years now. he's also personally owned I think 3 EV's, a PHEV, at least one Hydrogen fuel cell EV, and has an F150 Lightning and a Rivian on order.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

The EQS has zero frunk, and it's on a dedicated EV platform.
The Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5 have near as damnit no frunk, and both of them are on a completely ground up, dedicated EV platform.
Sometimes the frunk loses out due to aerodynamics or packaging reasons, and it's not because it's on a legacy platform.

Yeah, so that's bollocks - when a vehicle is designed for efficiency (minimum of wiring, tubing due to co-located components; critical components are engineered right next to each other on the same cradle, etc) it saves weight & room.

A design that saves weight & room leaves large open areas that have to be filled somehow ... storage is a both a great way to use up that space, add features, and have minimal structure.

To your point, It's not just the frunk; it's also in the trunk, inside the cabin, etc. But, let's be honest - the iX isn't missing a frunk due to aerodynamics

Watch a few tear-downs or, better, go to one yourself. Then you'll get it.

as for "dedicated platform" include the parts & assembly lines and then tell me it's "a dedicated EV platform"

I'm not saying the iX is a bad EV product or vehicle (according to reviews it seems pretty good), just a compromised one and there are many clues; "highly compatible" w/ CLAR, built alongside ICE, shares parts with ICE, and ... no frunk. The iX was designed to be efficient within BMW's ICE production & operations - that doesn't mean it's bad, but it does mean it's not as good as it could be.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

What I'm talking about is capital efficiency; Tesla has the highest margin in the history of scaled auto manufacturing...As I pointed out, Tesla is already beating BMW on margin BEV vs ICE ... BMW will have to completely re-engineer the iX to get to Tesla margins AND a great product ... and when they do, it'll for sure have a FRUNK.

I don't think BMW is competing with Tesla on equal terms and I don't think they need to. The audience they are going after is different. BMW is a German luxury car brand, while Tesla is more like a mobility appliance for the tech crowd.

And no, no one can touch Tesla margins, as no one else can use Elon's "Build Fast, Fix Later" car manufacturing motto. I still find it quite incredible how much the Tesla crowd can accept defects and deficiencies.

BMW will probably always be heavier than Tesla equivalent, because BMW has more sophisticated suspensions, instruments (HUD) and much better NVH (Noise, Vibration and Harshness) control, and all these cost weights.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Yeah, so that's bollocks - when a vehicle is designed for efficiency (minimum of wiring, tubing due to co-located components; critical components are engineered right next to each other on the same cradle, etc) it saves weight & room.

A design that saves weight & room leaves large open areas that have to be filled somehow ... storage is a both a great way to use up that space, add features, and have minimal structure.

To your point, It's not just the frunk; it's also in the trunk, inside the cabin, etc. But, let's be honest - the iX isn't missing a frunk due to aerodynamics

Watch a few tear-downs or, better, go to one yourself. Then you'll get it.

as for "dedicated platform" include the parts & assembly lines and then tell me it's "a dedicated EV platform"

I'm not saying the iX is a bad EV product or vehicle (according to reviews it seems pretty good), just a compromised one and there are many clues; "highly compatible" w/ CLAR, built alongside ICE, shares parts with ICE, and ... no frunk. The iX was designed to be efficient within BMW's ICE production & operations - that doesn't mean it's bad, but it does mean it's not as good as it could be.

I've watched a ton of teardowns. Sorry, but I "get it."

I never said the iX was missing a frunk because of aerodynamics, did I? In fact, I gave two examples that weren't. I purposely didn't use the iX as an example because I believe that it's not well packaged.

So, think it's bollocks all you want. But having a frunk is not what makes an EV "good" or marks it out as having an efficiently designed, designated EV platform. You want an example of efficient EV packaging? Look at the Ioniq 5. Length of a midsized crossover with a longer wheelbase than a Palisade or Telluride! It has a huge cabin. And when you devote all that room to cabin space, you still have to put the HVAC and other components somewhere. That somewhere is under the hood.

The Mustang Mach E is a dedicated EV platform. But it's HORRIBLY packaged mechanically; watch Sandy Munro's teardown. The only reason it has a decent frunk is because it has a giant hood so that it looks like a Mustang. Having a frunk does not mean a well packaged EV platform.

Finally, only the EV startups are truly making efficient layouts, because they're not beholden to legacy suppliers or using legacy "off the shelf" parts. Again, watch Sandy Munro's interview with the Mach E product planner. She admits that they took a lot of, I don't want to say short cuts, but "opportunities to use known products" as it were in order to curb development time and cost. And yet the MME has one of the biggest frunks in the business.

Frunk does not necessarily mean a well optomized EV, and vice versa.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Having a frunk does not mean a well packaged EV platform.

100% agree.
I also agree with hugo_nz - who wants to pop open the hood put in and take out stuff? Not me. Unless it is a powered hood, I won't want to use that frunk much.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I've watched a ton of teardowns. Sorry, but I "get it."

If you get it then you agree with me:

The frunk is one of many clues to design compromises

1 - The iX is designed to share parts w/ ICE
2 - The iX is designed to be assembled in an ICE plant, alongside ICE
3 - There are many clues to parts sharing & assembly design compromises ... like no-frunk (since there'd be plenty of room)
4 - It's highly likely given your tear-down experience, an iX tear down would reveal all kinds of inefficiencies since, how could it not? The iX is designed to share parts with ICE!

Net-net:
The iX is not "dedicated" if it shares ICE parts, is built on ICE lines, in an ICE factory.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

The frunk is one of many clues to design compromises

I disagree.
You only get a frunk because it was a design choice and the EV was designed with ICE car proportions.

VW ID.4 and Cadillac Lyrica built on EV platform also don't have frunk.
Mach E, even though it has a large frunk, is not very well packaged as a dedicated EV.

The iX is not "dedicated" if it shares ICE parts, is built on ICE lines, in an ICE factory.

This makes it even more remarkable that iX is actually more efficient than Model X.

[hugo_nz]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

If you get it then you agree with me:

The frunk is one of many clues to design compromises

1 - The iX is designed to share parts w/ ICE
2 - The iX is designed to be assembled in an ICE plant, alongside ICE
3 - There are many clues to parts sharing & assembly design compromises ... like no-frunk (since there'd be plenty of room)
4 - It's highly likely given your tear-down experience, an iX tear down would reveal all kinds of inefficiencies since, how could it not? The iX is designed to share parts with ICE!

Net-net:
The iX is not "dedicated" if it shares ICE parts, is built on ICE lines, in an ICE factory.

No manufacturer other than the EV startups, as mentioned before, can afford to build 100% bespoke cars (ev or otherwise) and part sharing will always be part of the product mix. Your way of thinking is comparing apples and oranges.

As for space for a frunk, take a look at the "under the hood" compartment of the iX and try to explain how any amount of useable space can be allocated in there. Less crammed components, easier access for repair, and less chance for severe injuries in the event of a front collision trump a frunk of questionable utility for me any day.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

This makes it even more remarkable that iX is actually more efficient than Model X.

What are the iX's or BMW's EV EBIT margins? They won't say... So probably remarkably unprofitable.

Ford is 7.3%, Tesla is 12.2%... BMW's ICE EBIT margin isn't even that high (11%)...in the long term due to these inefficiencies BMW can't afford to make the iX, it'll have to be redesigned...

The iX is a loss subsidized by ICE, by design.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by hugo_nz

Your way of thinking is comparing apples and oranges.

As for space for a frunk, take a look at the "under the hood"

I'm not comparing anything - I'm telling you the iX is inefficiently designed, engineered, and produced and I'm telling you factually why.

And your pic proves my point

[PhilD]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

Until there is a legit full on M, it's smoke and mirrors with BMW slapping on a M60 badge or what ever marketing. Battery technology will have drastically improve to track a EV M4 and not wait 6 hrs or have ever long the batteries take to charge these days in-between sessions.

I mean, why are you even posting in an EV subforum when you clearly have zero interest in EVs and are completely unwilling to understand them better and correct your misunderstandings? With fast charging, it hasn't been 6 hours for a full charge in *years*. For the iX, which has a *honking* battery, you can do 10-80% in a little over half an hour in ideal situations. And if you think that 'tracking' a car is it's only true value and the opinion of anyone that doesn't 'track' is void then I really truly pity you.

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by PhilD

I mean, why are you even posting in an EV subforum when you clearly have zero interest in EVs and are completely unwilling to understand them better and correct your misunderstandings? With fast charging, it hasn't been 6 hours for a full charge in *years*. For the iX, which has a *honking* battery, you can do 10-80% in a little over half an hour in ideal situations. And if you think that 'tracking' a car is it's only true value and the opinion of anyone that doesn't 'track' is void then I really truly pity you.

This post made the 'front page'.

Anyway, according to BMWBlog it will be 2032 that 'fast charge' EV batteries will be available. https://www.bmwblog.com/2022/03/02/e...utes-due-2032/

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

If you get it then you agree with me:

The frunk is one of many clues to design compromises

1 - The iX is designed to share parts w/ ICE
2 - The iX is designed to be assembled in an ICE plant, alongside ICE
3 - There are many clues to parts sharing & assembly design compromises ... like no-frunk (since there'd be plenty of room)
4 - It's highly likely given your tear-down experience, an iX tear down would reveal all kinds of inefficiencies since, how could it not? The iX is designed to share parts with ICE!

Net-net:
The iX is not "dedicated" if it shares ICE parts, is built on ICE lines, in an ICE factory.

I am not talking about the iX. I did not use it for an example. I agree with you on the iX. And don't get me started on the i4...

I am simply talking about the frunk not being a bellringer for an efficient, EV only platform design. Look at the EQS and EV6. They do not have frunks, or have a very small one.

Watch the video I posted. The EV6 is the same length as the Mach E. But it has a longer wheelbase and a more spacious cabin. Why? They moved a bunch of stuff under the hood and eliminated the frunk. The Mustang has a frunk, but it's not very well packaged.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

This post made the 'front page'.

Anyway, according to BMWBlog it will be 2032 that 'fast charge' EV batteries will be available. https://www.bmwblog.com/2022/03/02/e...utes-due-2032/

There are plenty of front page articles I don't click on.

[PhilD]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

This post made the 'front page'.

Anyway, according to BMWBlog it will be 2032 that 'fast charge' EV batteries will be available. https://www.bmwblog.com/2022/03/02/e...utes-due-2032/

'Fast charge' chargers are available now and can charge the iX from 10-80% in 30 minutes. That is what people talk about when meaning 'fast charge' in EVs. Of course the battery technology is going to get better in the next decade but it's already in a state that is more than usable for the vast majority of users.

I can understand that if you look at EVs with the mindset of an ICE user, where you usually fill up to full at the petrol station every time you get low, once a week or two while standing around waiting for it to fill, then the idea of standing around for 30 minutes sounds like lunacy. But that's not how it works with an EV. You hardly ever stop to charge at service stations at all anymore as you just top up at home overnight. The only times you have to 'fill up' in a more traditional sense is when doing long journeys, when you'd be taking longer rest breaks anyway. You don't stay with your vehicle while it charges, you plug it in at a fast charger, lock your car and then go off to use the facilities, stretch your legs and have something to eat.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

What are the iX's or BMW's EV EBIT margins? They won't say... So probably remarkably unprofitable.
Ford is 7.3%, Tesla is 12.2%... BMW's ICE EBIT margin isn't even that high (11%)...in the long term due to these inefficiencies BMW can't afford to make the iX, it'll have to be redesigned...

That's purely your speculation.
I disagree, but there is no way to confirm one way or the other unless you work in BMW accounting department. So it's pointless to debate, and not relevant to me as driver, and iX as my EV.

As a driver, all I care is iX is electrically more efficient than a Model X, and iX is a better car than Tesla.

By 2025, all BMW EVs will transition to Neue Klasse platform anyways. So yes, next gen iX, i4, and all other EVs will be new from ground up in 3 years.

[jettie1767]

I actually will consider the iX M60 or iXM when I'm ready to replace my X6MC in a couple of years.

The exterior is ok, not great, but not hideous for me. I love the interior.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

That's purely your speculation.
I disagree, but there is no way to confirm one way or the other unless you work in BMW accounting department. So it's pointless to debate, and not relevant to me as driver, and iX as my EV.

right cuz BMW has always been so shy about sharing places they're making a profit

Dude. Come on.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by PhilD

I can understand that if you look at EVs with the mindset of an ICE user, where you usually fill up to full at the petrol station every time you get low, once a week or two while standing around waiting for it to fill, then the idea of standing around for 30 minutes sounds like lunacy. But that's not how it works with an EV. You hardly ever stop to charge at service stations at all anymore as you just top up at home overnight. The only times you have to 'fill up' in a more traditional sense is when doing long journeys, when you'd be taking longer rest breaks anyway. You don't stay with your vehicle while it charges, you plug it in at a fast charger, lock your car and then go off to use the facilities, stretch your legs and have something to eat.

This is the holy grail of EV use-cases IMO ... a body-on-frame giant US-style truck a la Navigator/escalade/GrandWagoneer. Something that can legit hold 6 adults comfortably for hours, their gear, and tow a boat.

In this scenario, the 30 minutes even kinda wouldn't matter (assuming you can find them plentifully on the road), but no company seems in a rush to make it