[ghaffari46]

Originally Posted by InsanePineapple

I can answer this one for you. Long time BMW (and Audi) owner and got one the first Model 3 Performance in my town. I’ve decided several years ago that I will only be driving a BEV going forward. I’m not a Musk fan. In fact, I looked everywhere else before getting the P3. If BMW can offer similar performance in a BEV, I would have stayed with BMW. Yet, here I am, almost 4 years later, and still no other manufacturer is selling a performance BEV that competes directly with the P3. I dearly hope someone could come up with a viable competitor, because I personally think Musk is a massive a-hole

I 100 percent agree with you. If you have the money in your pocket you can be behind a wheel of a P3 tomorrow (second hand). Basically with a 50-60 k car you can beat almost everything on the road (not a fan of road racing though). God knows how long it will take to get an i4, and yes bmw have had these many years to come up with a car. I think bmw like many other German car maker is being forced into the EV market rather than having a passion about it.

[mfarrzhp]

Originally Posted by eaglerulez

I totally agree with you.

I WANT something better than a Model 3, but I'm not sure it's out there yet...although it's nice to see the i4 M50 get properly close to it in tests like this. To me any non-BEV at the moment almost feels like going backwards in time so it's a weird place to be.

I guess if going back in time means lighter weight, shifting my own gears, sonorous engine noise, having wonderful road feel and refueling in 2 minutes, then I like the past.

I see a spot for an EV for a 2 car household and I don't think the supercharger network is enough to push me to Tesla. My family does maybe one trip per year that is >300 miles.

I do understand why people get EVs, I'm just not ready. Looks like a nice job from BMW, albeit at a steep price.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

You are just going to completely ignore the supercharger network and autonomous driving option? Ok

So I have an I4 M50 on order.
A M3P was never on my road map. After my best friend had Tesla buy back one car due to quality and went through 3 others to finally get a car with acceptable quality.

I've had a L2 charger for 7 years and now on the third BEV at my home. My daughter rarely charges away from home. Also I don't see myself charging my M50 away from home often.

If I need a road trip, I'll take the X5.

As for ADAS? Surely you are joking. Tesla is L2 with hands on as a requirement even with optional FSD. Tesla uses a camera only system with no redundancy in the cameras which guarantees it will never be FSD.

BMW offers optional hands free in traffic with the only requirement that the driver be alert. No hands are required. Full braking to a stop and acceleration from a stop and safe distance following. BMW uses cameras LIDAR, Radar and multiple sensors on the bumpers for PDC. BMW uses MobilEye's platform which is head and shoulders above the Tesla vision oy system. BMW can upgrade the i4 to L3 when regulations catch up. BMW has applied for L3 in the US.

Elon has claiming L4 this year with his existing systems. Nobody in the ADAS/ASIL market pays attention to him. I spent more than half a decade doing ADAS/ASIL and ISO26262 processor and chip design.

Camera only doesn't work in bad weather; it can be blinded by snow and rain just like humans.

Camera only is not near as good as LIDAR and Radar for distance measurement.

There is more, but I'll stop here.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

So I have an I4 M50 on order.
A M3P was never on my road map. After my best friend had Tesla buy back one car due to quality and went through 3 others to finally get a car with acceptable quality.

I've had a L2 charger for 7 years and now on the third BEV at my home. My daughter rarely charges away from home. Also I don't see myself charging my M50 away from home often.

If I need a road trip, I'll take the X5.

As for ADAS? Surely you are joking. Tesla is L2 with hands on as a requirement even with optional FSD. Tesla uses a camera only system with no redundancy in the cameras which guarantees it will never be FSD.

BMW offers optional hands free in traffic with the only requirement that the driver be alert. No hands are required. Full braking to a stop and acceleration from a stop and safe distance following. BMW uses cameras LIDAR, Radar and multiple sensors on the bumpers for PDC. BMW uses MobilEye's platform which is head and shoulders above the Tesla vision oy system. BMW can upgrade the i4 to L3 when regulations catch up. BMW has applied for L3 in the US.

Elon has claiming L4 this year with his existing systems. Nobody in the ADAS/ASIL market pays attention to him. I spent more than half a decade doing ADAS/ASIL and ISO26262 processor and chip design.

Camera only doesn't work in bad weather; it can be blinded by snow and rain just like humans.

Camera only is not near as good as LIDAR and Radar for distance measurement.

There is more, but I'll stop here.

Again, i am not suggesting that there arent people that completely couldnt care less about superchargin network and assisted driving… I am refuting the statement that its hard to imagine Anyone choosing tesla model 3 over bmw i4. Debate me on that, not the argument that I didn't make.

I agree with you that camera-based autonomous tech alone may never be able to hit Level 5 in all weather and driving situations, but that does not prevent tesla from adding a Lidar system and supplementing it with the camera-based software that they have developed. Nor does it prevent them from doing a complete 180 and switching to Lidar. Lidar is not rocket science when it comes to assisted braking, etc.

[M3ANSPEC]

Suck on that Tesla!

[eddiehaug]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Again, i am not suggesting that there arent people that completely couldnt care less about superchargin network and assisted driving… I am refuting the statement that its hard to imagine Anyone choosing tesla model 3 over bmw i4. Debate me on that, not the argument that I didn't make.

I agree with you that camera-based autonomous tech alone may never be able to hit Level 5 in all weather and driving situations, but that does not prevent tesla from adding a Lidar system and supplementing it with the camera-based software that they have developed. Nor does it prevent them from doing a complete 180 and switching to Lidar. Lidar is not rocket science when it comes to assisted braking, etc.

The fact that you're taking that statement as a literal and absolute quote...

Man...

You can always find exceptions, I mentioned a couple myself together with that stetement, and for sure there are more —and that's even before you even consider personal taste.

The point is not that. The point is that only a fraction of people depend on an omnipresent charging network, because very few people drive so much every day or so often that they need even more range than the i4 can offer. For longer trips is enough with having a network that's good enough as to be able to make the charging stop coincide with one of your must-have bio or food breaks.

For most trips, for most people, and in most cases, both cars offer plenty of all the basics. So it all boils down to other characteristics and features, and my opinion is that in all those BMW blows Tesla out of the water. So, all that's left for most people, most of the time, is really personal preference for one brand and car over the other.

[sikotic]

Wait are those wing mirrors on the Tesla lol

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Again, i am not suggesting that there arent people that completely couldnt care less about superchargin network and assisted driving… I am refuting the statement that its hard to imagine Anyone choosing tesla model 3 over bmw i4. Debate me on that, not the argument that I didn't make.

I agree with you that camera-based autonomous tech alone may never be able to hit Level 5 in all weather and driving situations, but that does not prevent tesla from adding a Lidar system and supplementing it with the camera-based software that they have developed. Nor does it prevent them from doing a complete 180 and switching to Lidar. Lidar is not rocket science when it comes to assisted braking, etc.

Oh no, there are plenty people that prefer a Model 3 over a BMW.

For some the charging network is everything

With ADAS, Tesla can't and won't get beyond L2. There is absolutely no way to get to hands free if your camera system doesn't have redundancy. Full stop.

The reason for the hands on requirement is that if a camera fails a Tesla has no way to navigate. BMW, Mercedes, GM, Ford all have redundant systems that allow graceful fall over should a sensor fail. That is how they can have hands off L2+. The new EQS can do truly FSD when the laws catch up. Nvidia demonstrated a full hands free route end to end including, lane change, on/off ramp, merge, streets, expressway and parking lot. Full L3.

Tesla "Beta" software rolled out to customers has a flawed premise that customers are testing. What they are is guinea pigs. Software test has metrics and you must be able to repeat the error to prove that you have in fact fixed the error. Elon might be viewed as brilliant but he sucks as an engineer.

People buy what they like or the product who has marketed the best. Tesla and Elon have been great at selling what they do not have; FSD, Cyber Truck, Sports Car, Semi. All late to market.

Can Tesla go back and add LiDAR and Radar? Sure but that change means Elon sold everyone that bought FSD today a bag of crap. Former engineers and the majority of the safety community agrees with me. Tesla is the only company trying to do cameras only.

Edit - Article on Tesla FSD and why it's only L2.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmo...-2-autonomous/

[bobkalka]

Regarding the question about BMW markups, I asked my dealer bluntly, and their response was "We are not adding to the price. Stay off the forums."

[somberlaine]

Any thoughts on the 400+ kg weight different between the i4 and the model 3?

Not that I would ever consider buying a Tesla but the weight of the the i4 is my biggest concern

[Bahn360Photo]

Pretty good for first electric car to knock down king

Now throw electric motors into m5 and smoke that plaid model s and be done with it

[Staszek]

I say this is a pretty huge win considering the i4 is on the CLAR platform and wasnt built from the ground up to be an EV.

If it completes pretty damn close (sometimes slightly better) then the MP3 its going to destroy it once its on the EV platform.

I was very pleasantly surprised at this test.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

You are just going to completely ignore the supercharger network and autonomous driving option? Ok

Tesla's US supercharger network has been funded by at least $1.5B of US taxpayer money, so the network should really be open to general public.

And you are correct that Tesla's current autonomous driving should really be ignored/disabled to keep Tesla drivers and others on public roads safe.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Staszek

I say this is a pretty huge win considering the i4 is on the CLAR platform and wasnt built from the ground up to be an EV.

If it completes pretty damn close (sometimes slightly better) then the MP3 its going to destroy it once its on the EV platform.

I was very pleasantly surprised at this test.

Tesla also can improve spec to match/beat BMW's dedicated BEV platform (in 2025 timeframe), but Tesla's execution (e.g. QC, build quality, service, etc, etc) is unlikely to match other premium brands by then.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Tesla also can improve spec to match/beat BMW's dedicated BEV platform (in 2025 timeframe), but Tesla's execution (e.g. QC, build quality, service, etc, etc) is unlikely to match other premium brands by then.

Tesla has a looming problem as more traditional manufacturers ramp up. BMW just showed that.

Even new startups are giving Tesla grief. Lucid comes to mind.

I put a deposit down on a Fisker.
Fisker Ocean vs Model Y is going to be interesting.
Gotta wait until end of this year or beginning of 2023.

[Tim Callahan]

Originally Posted by sittingmongoose

Keep in mind the advantage Tesla has is their supercharger network. That is a massive advantage. But yea I wouldn't buy a Tesla. But that supercharger network makes me think twice.

That fully depends on where you live - my home country is roughly the same size as the state of California and yet we have less Supercharger stations in the whole country (12) than San Diego county has (14). The closest Supercharger station is more than 100 miles away from our home, and we live in the capitol area.

So for me when comparing M3P and i4M50 the Supercharger network does not move the needle at all.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Can Tesla go back and add LiDAR and Radar? Sure but that change means Elon sold everyone that bought FSD today a bag of crap. Former engineers and the majority of the safety community agrees with me. Tesla is the only company trying to do cameras only.

$10k for L2 is quite expensive.

[zilla91]

The supercharger network will be opened up in Europe soon so that particular USP for Tesla will disappear.

Could the mods merge all these i4 v model 3 threads? There’s about 3 going side by side with the same old boring arguments about build quality and assistance systems that have been done to death. We get it, some of you love Tesla and they’re the best thing since sliced bread while others will never have one even if they paid you to have one.

The Model 3, for all its foibles, is a very good car to drive and if you don’t agree with that statement you’ve either never tried one or you just don’t like driving. If the i4 gives you that with that familiar BMW feeling then that’s great news for everyone.

[Cortexiphan]

Tesla was a one trick pony.
The pony is dead.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by zilla91

Could the mods merge all these i4 v model 3 threads? There’s about 3 going side by side with the same old boring arguments about build quality and assistance systems that have been done to death...

Hear, hear.

It's sad that there are a few posters who look at every mention of Tesla as the opportunity to regurgitate the same tired old arguments and off-topic crap that they think justifies their hatred of the brand.

Those posters reveal far more about themselves than they do about the brand they hate so much every time they do so.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by zilla91

The supercharger network will be opened up in Europe soon so that particular USP for Tesla will disappear.

Could the mods merge all these i4 v model 3 threads? There’s about 3 going side by side with the same old boring arguments about build quality and assistance systems that have been done to death. We get it, some of you love Tesla and they’re the best thing since sliced bread while others will never have one even if they paid you to have one.

The Model 3, for all its foibles, is a very good car to drive and if you don’t agree with that statement you’ve either never tried one or you just don’t like driving. If the i4 gives you that with that familiar BMW feeling then that’s great news for everyone.

Hopefully Tesla will open up US supercharger network soon esp. that US taxpayers paid a lot to get that up and running.

I did have a Model 3 on order but Tesla had no car for me when I needed one, so I went for a G20 330i. At the time Model 3 SR+ base(no FSD) would have been $2k more expensive than my G20, but it was something new to try.

Given that Tesla build quality is still hit and miss, and Tesla's tech is not unique given other premium brand offerings, I tend to think Tesla's current $50k price tag on Model 3 SR+ is somewhat overpriced.

And reality check of Tesla's FSD/AP is important, as many look forward to it as best thing since slice bread. Tesla falling behind in that curve is not helping to justify Tesla's price premiums.

[perezr10]

Originally Posted by zilla91

The supercharger network will be opened up in Europe soon so that particular USP for Tesla will disappear.

Could the mods merge all these i4 v model 3 threads? There's about 3 going side by side with the same old boring arguments about build quality and assistance systems that have been done to death. We get it, some of you love Tesla and they're the best thing since sliced bread while others will never have one even if they paid you to have one.

The Model 3, for all its foibles, is a very good car to drive and if you don't agree with that statement you've either never tried one or you just don't like driving. If the i4 gives you that with that familiar BMW feeling then that's great news for everyone.

This is why Tesla will always be a niche player. People are divided on it. Toyota and Honda stole market share by not becoming hated by half of the market.

Tesla is a bit player in the auto market today as a percent of units sold. They always will be.

My problem with them is basically that they are an embarrassment to American manufacturing.