[synclastica_86]

The mere mentioning of FWD on a forum full of tail happy driving enthusiasts may seem like blasphemy, let alone saying that I like them. I used to be someone who is absolutely pro-RWD and think that other forms of power delivery are for wusses with inferior driving skills. About a year ago, I got my first FWD and realized how wrong I was.

I have owned a series of RWD cars, and I'm currently in a F32 435iA. Despite using it as my DD, I'm always in sports+. My driving buddies and I have been talking about getting cheap, manual cars to brush up on our driving skills as our late model rides are too reliant on driving aids. A year ago, I took action and began looking for a suitable ride. I started looking at RWD cars from the 90's like the Toyota Chaser, Nissan Silvia and BMW E36/46. These are great cars with minimal driving assists; unfortunately, they are all too expensive for my purpose. As this is a toy that I'll use to thrash around and treat as expendable, I gave myself a budget of $20,000HKD (~$2,500USD).

Since RWD options had prohibitive costs, I settled for the FWD segment and ended up in a 2001 Peugeot 206 GTi that cost only $16,000HKD (~$2,000USD). Compare to my 435, power was down, way down. That 2.0L had 138hp stock; I was lucky if it still had 110hp after 15 years. The interior was shit and the matte black paint job with a creased up chrome hood wrap was distasteful, but I didn't care as the sole purpose of this car was to help improve my driving skills.

The first thing I worked on was my heel-toe, and this wasn't by choice. Since the synchromesh of third was malfunctioning, a perfect blip was the only way to shift without grind. That served me well, and rev-matching soon became second nature. After being aquatinted with the manual shifter, I began pushing the car to refine on my line. Running 205's front and rear that are well-aged and worn, grip was relatively limited. I found myself spinning out rather often as the rear tended to be quite loose under heavy braking. Such behavior taught my right foot to become more sensitive and I slowly learned to catch the rear with the steering inputs before it got out of hand.

As I improved in the 206, I was able to keep up with my buddies in their late model vehicles. On the right road, I was able to keep up with R35's and even outright outran a CLS500 on one occasion. The 206 was the lightest car I've ever driven, and I fell in love with the compactness of the car. Driving a smaller car means that I could drive a more aggressive line even whilst staying in my own lane. Traffic became my friend as I can weave through gaps my buddies can't in their larger vehicles. I like this car so much that I didn't touch my 435 for more than a month and my previous bias towards FWDs had been completely erased.

I understand that a large part of my love of this little FWD hatch is irrational as it gave a significant boost to my driving ego. More objectively, however, I think there are still valid arguments going for FWD vehicles. First and foremost, FWD cars tend to come in a more compact package. Roads suddenly feels wider - there is noticeably more room to play with and a larger margin for errors. Their compact size also means that they feel more nimble. Another thing that I like about FWD is that I found them easier to handle in the sense that mistakes are less costly. All of these encourage drivers to push harder while comfortably knowing that there's more of a safety net. This, in my humble opinion, is what makes a car fun to drive. I can never be competitive in terms of speed, why not just get something that puts a smile on my face?

Despite what I like about FWD drivetrains, they are not without compromises. Wheel spin when getting off the line is notorious. You can forget about dropping the clutch at 4,000rpm (the rev I launch my E92 M3 with) as the car will simply remain motionless. FWD cars also tend towards understeering. While the rear is willing to come around under braking, I find it difficult to use that to my advantage other than the fact that it fosters car control skills. Maybe it's my inferior driving skills, but I found that there's no foreseeable way for me to hold a FWD in a drift. To get my power-slide fix, I'll have to pay my 435 a visit. Overall, however, I found that I'm able to live with those disadvantages of FWDs, particularly when I have another RWD machine in my stable.

I was running the 206 hard every night and, expectedly, reliability issues began to occur. The first thing to give was the rear suspension, then the exhaust pipe fell off. When the air conditioner - an essential in the tropical climate of Hong Kong - finally broke, I decided to give up on that car and searched its replacement. I ended up in another 206 and parted with another $26,000HKD (~$3,500USD). This time it's the MY2002 RC with 180hp when new. Being a top of the line model, there's noticeable improvement in almost every aspect of the car. Unfortunately, I totaled that car when taking an overly aggressive line through a roundabout. I ran wide and clipped the left rear on the exit. While the damage was minimal, it simply didn't make economic sense to repair it. Currently, I'm in a Ford Fiesta ST. It's my third FWD hatch in 12 months. While I'm always going to have a RWD BMW in my garage (it had been that way since I got my license), I will no longer discard FWDs as a viable option when car shopping.

[OutlawX3M]

I think the whole "hot hatch" phenomenon is pretty cool. I've driven the Fiat Abarth 500 and it's a blast.

The Ford Focus RS is another really bad@$$ vehicle with 350hp/350tq?!?!

Of course there's more to choose from in Europe than here in the US, you lucky bastards

[gtron]

[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by Outlaw M3

I think the whole "hot hatch" phenomenon is pretty cool. I've driven the Fiat Abarth 500 and it's a blast.

The Ford Focus RS is another really bad@$$ vehicle with 350hp/350tq?!?!

Of course there's more to choose from in Europe than here in the US, you lucky bastards

The Focus RS should be a great ride with its "drift mode". However, it's too big for my cup of tea. I prefer cars that are similar in size with the Fiesta, VW Polo, and Renault Clio RS. The focus, on the other hand, is closer in size to the Golf and Megan. It is a shame that the Clio RS doesn't come in manual anymore.

I used to live in the states too, so I know exactly how you feel. Living in Hong Kong, we do have more cars in this segment to choose from, but we pay more than twice the price due to heavy car taxes. We also don't get any of the holy trinity as they are LHD only, and only a single M4 GTS is heading our way.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by gtron

+1, someone with a head injury i presume

[to_riffic]

I had a R56 MINI and it was a blast. Now I'm picking up my sister's husband's 03' R53 and that's even smaller than the R56 and I know it's going to be badass...

to each their own, but FWD cars can be exhilarating, with a different feel obviously, but nonetheless fun in many ways.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by synclastica_86

...Roads suddenly feels wider....

That's because of under-steer all the time.

On a more serious note, "hot hatch" cars are fun to drive I can see your arguments, you have that instant sensation of the speed in a small package. But sweetness of cornering and having to make sure car doesn't step out on you with RWD is hard to match in my opinion.

[MightyMouseTech]

All the cars I have raced have been FWD. They can be a lot of fun. My Civic was set up to be fast, which also made it a lot of fun. Bascially, keep stiffening up the rear so neutral cornering was only at WOT. Pucker factor is fun. That car never, ever, ever understeered.

[kprocivic]

I still have my 05 honda civic si and I'm faster than most modern cars relatively speaking in the twisties.
Love that little car.

My hot hatch

[ShocknAwe]

Love lightweight hot hatches. FWD is fine as long as the car is kept lightweight enough that it doesnt needing much power and torque to keep up. The new active torque vectoring diffs are really clever at keeping the starting and power delivery working together as well.

Agreed that the ST is verging on too big now though.

[fecurtis]

A thread about how great FWD is????

[Blksnowflake]

my new license plate is literally going to be EWWW FWD...so yeah...

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

A thread about how great FWD is????

Why not, as long as its not on my BMW im happy. Oh wait...

[TBN54]

Originally Posted by gtron

Lmaooooooo

[TBN54]

Originally Posted by ra2fanatic

I had a R56 MINI and it was a blast. Now I'm picking up my sister's husband's 03' R53 and that's even smaller than the R56 and I know it's going to be badass...

to each their own, but FWD cars can be exhilarating, with a different feel obviously, but nonetheless fun in many ways.

Just say brother-in-law....

[pz619]

Are all FWD cars bad? No. But I won't accept that the same car wouldn't be MORE fun if it was RWD.

[TypeOne]

I've built and raced FWD cars for most of my life and career... I love them. With that said, there are just some things they can't do. For those things I have my RWD car. :-P

[to_riffic]

Originally Posted by pz619

Are all FWD cars bad? No. But I won't accept that the same car wouldn't be MORE fun if it was RWD.

True. FWD are great primarily on a smaller car. You wouldn't hear me saying how much "I love my FWD Acura TL" or something. In the right platform, FWD cars absolutely shine when done right.

[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

...But sweetness of cornering and having to make sure car doesn't step out on you with RWD is hard to match in my opinion.

Agreed, that's why I'm always gonna keep an RWD.

[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by ra2fanatic

...FWD are great primarily on a smaller car. You wouldn't hear me saying how much "I love my FWD Acura TL" or something. In the right platform, FWD cars absolutely shine when done right.

You are absolutely right. That's why I prefer smaller packages: the fiesta over the focus, the polo over the golf, and the Clio over the Megan etc.

[Z K]

If you're doing lightweight FWD sports cars, you have to look at the Honda Civic Type R and the Integra Type R. Very fast on smaller and tighter courses. Even the older Civic SiR (Si in America) is very fast. I used to track my Civic Si 16 years ago. Great car and tons of fun. Keeping the revs up high and hearing the engine scream to 8000rpm is always a treat.

For the new FWD cars, the Fiesta ST is insanely fun as well. Others such as the Golf GTI are getting rather big and the power is nice but the handling suffers because of the size and weight.

But in the same vein, learn to drive a lightweight RWD car fast and it requires much more skill and is rewarding when you get it right. The Miata MX-5 is a great example of a great small RWD car. Used, they are pretty inexpensive. You'll find well set up ones out running most cars on track. The new one is very good as well. Others to consider is the BRZ and Toyota GT86.

[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by pz619

Are all FWD cars bad? No. But I won't accept that the same car wouldn't be MORE fun if it was RWD.

I think the issue here is that it's difficult to find smaller and lighter car with an FR layout. There are plenty of FWD cars in the 1,100 kg range, while the lightest RWDs are usually 1,300+ kg. That's a difference of two or three addition passengers, a difference that is definitely noticeable. Yes, cars like the lotus are even lighter, but they are much less affordable.