[Artemis]

"The EU plans for an even stricter Euro 7 emissions standard are a huge technical challenge and at the same time have little benefit for the environment. That extremely restricts the combustion engine," Duesmann told Automobilwoche. "We will no longer develop a new internal combustion engine, but will adapt our existing internal combustion engines to new emission guidelines."
(source: here + reported here, here and here).

[chassis]

Another kick in the shins for ICE enthusiasts. Mercedes made a similar announcement a year ago or so.

[David70]

The best ICE's ever made are likely already on or left the market.

[mkoesel]

Other than a few notable outliers, this is a familiar strategy for most of the industry. BMW announced some time back that the current engine lineup is the last. From here on, it will be incremental revisions.

Those bucking the trend:

- Mazda seems to be pushing forward with their brand new I6 even as Japan claims to be ending new ICE sales by 2030.

- Last year it came to light that Toyota's turbocharged V8 is dead, but lately some (sketchy) rumors suggest it may yet be coming.

- Various super car manufacturers persist with bespoken engines (Glickenhouse comes to mind).

I've probably missed some, but the majority of the automakers have their ICE operation in "maintenance mode" - keep them compliant and competitive, but no new programs. PHEV sales will extend the life of some of these. It's also not clear yet what the path to wind-down is for heavy trucks, marine, specialty/service applications. This could take well into next decade, and ICE will be with us through it. Synthetic fuels have interesting possibilities to throw a curveball, but there's a specific window for it depending on where battery tech goes on the 10 to 15 year time horizon.

[swanson]

Terrible news. No interest in electric cars no matter what.

[frchdragon]

My company is selling equipment to Tier 1 suppliers and auto manufacturers all over the world, we are seeing the trend where spending is being focused on e-mobility and as mkoesel is saying, they are putting their combustion engine in maintenance mode, not spending huge amount of money in the engine programs.

It is a race to dominating (or playing Tesla catch up) the e-mobility market.
And then... we have Hydrogen...

[frchdragon]

Originally Posted by swanson

Terrible news. No interest in electric cars no matter what.

Lotus Evija: 500HP... PER WHEEL = 2000HP.
https://newatlas.com/lotus-evija-200...ypercar/60618/

Enough said :-)

[heavyD^2]

To be fair I've never found any VAG engines terribly reliable. They still have issues getting simple things right like thermostat housings that don't leak. Maybe the VR6 is the lone reliable engine they have ever made.

[W///]

Originally Posted by David70

The best ICE's ever made are likely already on or left the market.

Couldn't agree more. Pretty much all the screaming/high revving NA engines have already made their exits. There are some nice turbocharged engines, but I wouldn't call them the pinnacle personally.

Frankly, I don't necessarily care too much that they don't develop ICE anymore, as the list of cars I'd love to own is already too large for my garage. I'm more worried about gas going sky high because then these cars truly become special occasion only.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by frchdragon

Lotus Evija: 500HP... PER WHEEL = 2000HP.
https://newatlas.com/lotus-evija-200...ypercar/60618/

Enough said :-)

Also unlikely to find its way onto any of our driveways (i said unlikely)

[frchdragon]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Also unlikely to find its way onto any of our driveways (i said unlikely)

Don't get me wrong, I raced, I love Manual transmission (darn you ZF for making me change my mind) and I instruct driving schools.
I have been a motorhead for a long long time and I remember sneaking in to go to the pits at Le Mans during the 24 hours.
The Noise of a screaming engine, the smells of gas and oil... I am all for it.

But maximum torque at t=0s, you can't beat that. The simplicity of the mechanical side of the electrical car, the cheap maintenance, no stupid timing chain or OFHG destroying your engine.
Add to that the flexibility or having new car designs with less limitations. No massive radiators, less moving parts...

Will I miss the sound of a Maserati, hell yeah!

[Fined]

They've already developed the 2.5TFSI and that's good enough for me. I do not want any of their junk ass cars though. I'll find a way to get that engine into a decent chassis at some point.

[Murf993]

I think we are decades away from the end of ICE despite the push from certain groups and sectors. I suspect aside from the range anxiety issues the other big hurdles will be infrastructure getting power grids to be adequate to supply the need for rapid charging and just the increased demand from home charging.

[chassis]

Electric vehicles today don't address all use cases. EVs are 100% no-go in those cases.

EV technology will have to improve in order to satisfy more use cases. I believe technology will improve, but how far and how fast remains to be seen.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Murf993

I think we are decades away from the end of ICE despite the push from certain groups and sectors. I suspect aside from the range anxiety issues the other big hurdles will be infrastructure getting power grids to be adequate to supply the need for rapid charging and just the increased demand from home charging.

Originally Posted by chassis

Electric vehicles today don't address all use cases. EVs are 100% no-go in those cases.
EV technology will have to improve in order to satisfy more use cases. I believe technology will improve, but how far and how fast remains to be seen.

All the EV with an "estimated" 460+ km in this list: "This electric vehicle is not available yet":
https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car

[cfm56d7b]

I think there is another underlying theme why Audi and others do not want to invest in new ICE engines.

Current modern 4-6-8 cylinder engines are superb in many respects. B58 and S58 are stars in their own category. The question in front of BMW executives and product planners is a difficult one: how many millions of Euros will it take to make either engine dramatically better? In the view of cost cutting initiatives and capital redeployment towards EVs, the answer is fairly predictable.

[chassis]

Automakers have as much as 30% less cost to build an EV compared with a similar ICE vehicle. Automakers are laughing all the way to the bank as the regulators regulate. Like Br'er rabbit and the briar patch.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by chassis

Automakers have as much as 30% less cost to build an EV compared with a similar ICE vehicle. Automakers are laughing all the way to the bank as the regulators regulate. Like Br'er rabbit and the briar patch.

If true, EV would be priced less than a similar ICE. They are not.

[M3_WC]

In other news, Porsche is developing synthetic fuels to keep ice alive.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Other than a few notable outliers, this is a familiar strategy for most of the industry. BMW announced some time back that the current engine lineup is the last. From here on, it will be incremental revisions.

Those bucking the trend:

- Mazda seems to be pushing forward with their brand new I6 even as Japan claims to be ending new ICE sales by 2030.

- Last year it came to light that Toyota's turbocharged V8 is dead, but lately some (sketchy) rumors suggest it may yet be coming.

- Various super car manufacturers persist with bespoken engines (Glickenhouse comes to mind).

I've probably missed some, but the majority of the automakers have their ICE operation in "maintenance mode" - keep them compliant and competitive, but no new programs. PHEV sales will extend the life of some of these. It's also not clear yet what the path to wind-down is for heavy trucks, marine, specialty/service applications. This could take well into next decade, and ICE will be with us through it. Synthetic fuels have interesting possibilities to throw a curveball, but there's a specific window for it depending on where battery tech goes on the 10 to 15 year time horizon.

I can say from a marine aspect at least for sailboats, if a boat has been converted to electric auxiliary power, it will be worth substantially less than the same boat with a diesel; even less than one with a gasoline engine. I don't know if electric power will ever catch on in this application as there are tons of challenges and perceptions (justified or unjustified).

[David70]

Originally Posted by chassis

Automakers have as much as 30% less cost to build an EV compared with a similar ICE vehicle. Automakers are laughing all the way to the bank as the regulators regulate. Like Br'er rabbit and the briar patch.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If true, EV would be priced less than a similar ICE. They are not.

I think they estimate 30% less labor, not cost. Cost is currently higher. I think as far as what you actually get, it's reasonable to compare selling prices of a base Bolt with a base Honda CRV and the CRV wins easily on initial price.

With this 30% labor reduction and the high priced battery that is dropping rapidly they expect the cost to build the vehicle to eventually be lower. Get the cost to match, then add the lower cost of fuel and maintenance and I think many switch for financial reasons. Most aren't in love with their ICE or the maintenance that comes with it, just deal with it as it is currently the best option.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by chassis

Automakers have as much as 30% less cost to build an EV compared with a similar ICE vehicle. Automakers are laughing all the way to the bank as the regulators regulate. Like Br'er rabbit and the briar patch.

That's future state.

Today, battery costs mean EVs suffer lower margins than combustion equivalents. And it continues to prohibit a market for practical (200+ mile range) low-end EV from existing at all. This will steadily change over the course of the decade, but for now this is the reality.

That said, yes, automakers are eager for the transition because it will greatly simplify their business. On the power unit side, the reduction in complexity will mean cheaper assembly, cheaper maintenance, and reduced warranty costs. On the design side, the interdependencies that exist between today's mechanical subsystems will disappear. Eventually this should yield near zero-cost overhead for arbitrarily many vehicle variants on a single infinitely flexible architecture (see forward-thinking startups like REE for an example of what's coming).

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I can say from a marine aspect at least for sailboats, if a boat has been converted to electric auxiliary power, it will be worth substantially less than the same boat with a diesel; even less than one with a gasoline engine. I don't know if electric power will ever catch on in this application as there are tons of challenges and perceptions (justified or unjustified).

It's already happening. But yes, if we are (rightly) concerned about the use cases where a BEV won't meet customer needs on land, well the situation is far more dire when we shift the conversation to water going transportation. When people talk about hydrogen fuel cell being necessary to get everything to zero emissions, this is one place where the tech becomes far more practical.