[TXSTYLE]

Whoa.... 😲

https://www.thedrive.com/news/41977/...ph-street-race

[BeEmVe]

Given the current times, the dealer will probably be able to sell the 2021 for a tidy sum, to the point of making money. Regardless good on the dealer.

[unluky]

Originally Posted by BeEmVe

Given the current times, the dealer will probably be able to sell the 2021 for a tidy sum, to the point of making money. Regardless good on the dealer.

EXACTLY what I was thinking! My sister had a Kia Stinger on lease and the lease came up this year. She took care of it and it was under on miles. She liked it and was probably going to buy it - she would have owed $24K to buy it outright. They offered her $42 for it - WTF? She took it and re-leased another one and now drives a 3 years newer one for $100 per month less.

She got the same color, which I didn't understand - but it's insane what the used car market is doing right now.

[Bimmersandmopars]

Originally Posted by unluky

EXACTLY what I was thinking! My sister had a Kia Stinger on lease and the lease came up this year. She took care of it and it was under on miles. She liked it and was probably going to buy it - she would have owed $24K to buy it outright. They offered her $42 for it - WTF? She took it and re-leased another one and now drives a 3 years newer one for $100 per month less.

She got the same color, which I didn't understand - but it's insane what the used car market is doing right now.

The truck market is where the real $ is....

One of my Hellcats I sold for $6k more than what I paid for it and put 14k miles and 1 full warranty replaced Motor on it. Lol

[VisualEcho]

Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield. Yay for those times you're the windshield.

[mikado463]

I assume the tech is looking for employment ?

[Our03z4]

Originally Posted by Bimmersandmopars

The truck market is where the real $ is....

One of my Hellcats I sold for $6k more than what I paid for it and put 14k miles and 1 full warranty replaced Motor on it. Lol

You aren't kidding I keep getting dealer offers on my 2019 F250 for $10k over what I paid 30k miles ago. Insane especially considering it's just the work truck package with no power anything. Only options are a tow package, a/c and a radio.

[Fritzer]

What the hell are these price stories, tf is going on with the car market?

[Haideezy]

Originally Posted by Fritzer

What the hell are these price stories, tf is going on with the car market?

Dealerships aren't getting enough inventory because of the microchip shortage. Car's are supposedly being built and just sitting around unfinished because they don't have the microchips to finish them.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Fritzer

What the hell are these price stories, tf is going on with the car market?

Blown out of proportion by just pub talk and hearsay.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Blown out of proportion by just pub talk and hearsay.

Umm...hardly blown out of proportion nor hearsay. If you go to any car dealer, you can see the impact of the low inventory. Even rental car companies are suffering from this. I know personally about this as I had to get a rental recently due to my car going into a body shop for work. Thank goodness I was doing this through State Farm insurance and had put in an advanced reservation. When I got to the nearby Enterprise Rental Car facility, there were literally almost no cars on their lot. I've never seen it that way ever. Their phones were ringing off the hook with people asking for same day rentals which they couldn't fulfill. Every response was maybe you'll get a car in 2 or 3 days. I had put in for a standard car and they didn't have anything on the lot. I got put in an Audi A5 which of course is several tiers higher than the rental I had reserved. Enterprise even honored the standard car per day pricing. All due to low inventory.

And the bottleneck is with Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC). They seem to be the only large scale manufacturer that is capable of producing these chips needed in the automotive industry. This is what we all get for outsourcing all of our manufacturing capability to one source.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/21/tsmc...last-year.html

[TXSTYLE]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Umm...hardly blown out of proportion nor hearsay. If you go to any car dealer, you can see the impact of the low inventory. Even rental car companies are suffering from this. I know personally about this as I had to get a rental recently due to my car going into a body shop for work. Thank goodness I was doing this through State Farm insurance and had put in an advanced reservation. When I got to the nearby Enterprise Rental Car facility, there were literally almost no cars on their lot. I've never seen it that way ever. Their phones were ringing off the hook with people asking for same day rentals which they couldn't fulfill. Every response was maybe you'll get a car in 2 or 3 days. I had put in for a standard car and they didn't have anything on the lot. I got put in an Audi A5 which of course is several tiers higher than the rental I had reserved. Enterprise even honored the standard car per day pricing. All due to low inventory.

And the bottleneck is with Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC). They seem to be the only large scale manufacturer that is capable of producing these chips needed in the automotive industry. This is what we all get for outsourcing all of our manufacturing capability to one source.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/21/tsmc...last-year.html

THIS

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

And the bottleneck is with Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC). They seem to be the only large scale manufacturer that is capable of producing these chips needed in the automotive industry. This is what we all get for outsourcing all of our manufacturing capability to one source.

It's not as simple as just stop outsourcing. TSMC (and others like Samsung) have mastered production of the most advanced chips that other companies simply can't do. Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger admitted they don't have the know-how to manufacture these most advanced chips. It's not just building the factory and start producing. You need the process technology that takes massive investment in the tens of billions of dollars.

Also, it's not a supply issue but rather the root cause was brought upon by companies that had slowed or shut down suddenly all restarting at the same time spiking demand past capacity limits. People working from home spurred a massive digital transformation that spiked demand as well. The US-China trade war also caused a massive front-loading of chip demand... and so on.

These events are not normal. In normal times, production capacity is more than sufficient to cover demand.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Umm...hardly blown out of proportion nor hearsay. If you go to any car dealer, you can see the impact of the low inventory. Even rental car companies are suffering from this. I know personally about this as I had to get a rental recently due to my car going into a body shop for work. Thank goodness I was doing this through State Farm insurance and had put in an advanced reservation. When I got to the nearby Enterprise Rental Car facility, there were literally almost no cars on their lot. I've never seen it that way ever. Their phones were ringing off the hook with people asking for same day rentals which they couldn't fulfill. Every response was maybe you'll get a car in 2 or 3 days. I had put in for a standard car and they didn't have anything on the lot. I got put in an Audi A5 which of course is several tiers higher than the rental I had reserved. Enterprise even honored the standard car per day pricing. All due to low inventory.

And the bottleneck is with Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC). They seem to be the only large scale manufacturer that is capable of producing these chips needed in the automotive industry. This is what we all get for outsourcing all of our manufacturing capability to one source.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/21/tsmc...last-year.html

This is what happens when bozos shut the whole world down. And I totally agree with you about outsourcing. It had to come back and bite us in the ass one day. Here it is.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

It's not as simple as just stop outsourcing. TSMC (and others like Samsung) have mastered production of the most advanced chips that other companies simply can't do. Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger admitted they don't have the know-how to manufacture these most advanced chips. It's not just building the factory and start producing. You need the process technology that takes massive investment in the tens of billions of dollars.

Also, it's not a supply issue but rather the root cause was brought upon by companies that had slowed or shut down suddenly all restarting at the same time spiking demand past capacity limits. People working from home spurred a massive digital transformation that spiked demand as well. The US-China trade war also caused a massive front-loading of chip demand... and so on.

These events are not normal. In normal times, production capacity is more than sufficient to cover demand.

Yes, it is as simple as the problem being we've outsourced our chip manufacturing to overseas companies. These companies mastered the complex fabbing because we (the US) decided we didn't want to invest in having the fabrication capability here. The same goes with rare earth metals that are critical in many of the devices we take for granted.

And what do you think is happening now. Lack of inventory to meet demand for order IS a supply issue. Doesn't matter what caused it. If there was more than one source for these chips, the supply crunch wouldn't be so severe.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Yes, it is as simple as the problem being we've outsourced our chip manufacturing to overseas companies. These companies mastered the complex fabbing because we (the US) decided we didn't want to invest in having the fabrication capability here. The same goes with rare earth metals that are critical in many of the devices we take for granted.

And what do you think is happening now. Lack of inventory to meet demand for order IS a supply issue. Doesn't matter what caused it. If there was more than one source for these chips, the supply crunch wouldn't be so severe.

That's the fallacy, that our strength is in manufacturing or that we'll somehow be able to compete with the world market and emerging economies/countries. Of course, if we choose to not play on the world market, then technology and prosperity pass us up and are granted on the nations that fill the need. We will never be able to make a widget the cheapest, someone will always come along that do do it better, faster, more efficiently, etc. Our strength is in developing the technology and the processes. It's a balance, because if we just isolate, we end up with the US crap that was being made 30 years ago. It's just not sustainable to have our own manufacturing for everything, when it'll be undercut by much of the world. Then we get to where we have to artificially sustain the industry with tax dollars, etc... You CAN take supply-chain and "just in time" too far, which is part of what we are seeing, but the people that think we are just going to start making a bunch of widgets or microprocessors in-country when they are available abroad is just fantasy.

Anyway, the chip shortage has affected some automakers gravely...some are not affected. Shortage abounds due to lack of supply, the ones that have supply trying to fill the abscess created by the ones that have none.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

It's not as simple as just stop outsourcing. TSMC (and others like Samsung) have mastered production of the most advanced chips that other companies simply can't do. Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger admitted they don't have the know-how to manufacture these most advanced chips. It's not just building the factory and start producing. You need the process technology that takes massive investment in the tens of billions of dollars.

Also, it's not a supply issue but rather the root cause was brought upon by companies that had slowed or shut down suddenly all restarting at the same time spiking demand past capacity limits. People working from home spurred a massive digital transformation that spiked demand as well. The US-China trade war also caused a massive front-loading of chip demand... and so on.

These events are not normal. In normal times, production capacity is more than sufficient to cover demand.

The chips the automotive industry is short on, by-and-large, are not advanced. They are MCUs and other garden variety stuff on older process nodes that could have been made in many fabs. Automotive (outside of infotainment or Tesla) uses ancient stuff by consumer market standards. The real issue is that the CEOs running these companies have decided to sell off fabs or reduce what's made internally as much as possible. The stock market has rewarded chip companies for getting rid of their fabs. The end result is that you have a good portion of Infineon, STM, or NXP automotive chips being fabbed by a handful of outside foundries.

These older process nodes are not a priority for TSMC especially. Roadmaps are predetermined years ahead of time and there is no way to quickly add capacity. Foundries will not invest in old stuff for what is perceived as a short-term demand spike. Intel will probably never fab chips like these, they are not advanced enough. However, there does need to be more diversification of the supply chain. The relentless focus on short term profit for shareholder return is what has driven this industry-wide consolidation and we are all paying the price for it.

Most of these automotive chips could be made just about anywhere, but it is usually no trivial task to move a chip to another foundry. Many "simple" 45-90nm digital parts would take months and months of work to move. With analog stuff, it is not uncommon for a new part to be created and the old one discontinued because the performance of the part is so tightly coupled to where it's manufactured.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

That's the fallacy, that our strength is in manufacturing or that we'll somehow be able to compete with the world market and emerging economies/countries. Of course, if we choose to not play on the world market, then technology and prosperity pass us up and are granted on the nations that fill the need. We will never be able to make a widget the cheapest, someone will always come along that do do it better, faster, more efficiently, etc. Our strength is in developing the technology and the processes. It's a balance, because if we just isolate, we end up with the US crap that was being made 30 years ago. It's just not sustainable to have our own manufacturing for everything, when it'll be undercut by much of the world. Then we get to where we have to artificially sustain the industry with tax dollars, etc... You CAN take supply-chain and "just in time" too far, which is part of what we are seeing, but the people that think we are just going to start making a bunch of widgets or microprocessors in-country when they are available abroad is just fantasy.

Anyway, the chip shortage has affected some automakers gravely...some are not affected. Shortage abounds due to lack of supply, the ones that have supply trying to fill the abscess created by the ones that have none.

I didn't say we should take the lead in manufacturing these chips. The fact we don't have an alternative is shameful. There are fab plants here in the US. Micron has if I recall two plants. One of them is in Manassas Virginia where I've visited personally. Spending the money to ensure at least some fab capability in the US seems way cheaper than all the lost revenue from product sitting because it's missing one component.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

And the bottleneck is with Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC). They seem to be the only large scale manufacturer that is capable of producing these chips needed in the automotive industry. This is what we all get for outsourcing all of our manufacturing capability to one source.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/21/tsmc...last-year.html

There are plenty of others on legacy nodes besides TSMC. TSMC is primarily focused on leading edge nodes, which isn't what automotive processors are on. That said, if given the choice between having TSMC fab your chip or someone else (not on a commercial basis), TSMC is always the preference.

Originally Posted by Tacoma

It's not as simple as just stop outsourcing. TSMC (and others like Samsung) have mastered production of the most advanced chips that other companies simply can't do. Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger admitted they don't have the know-how to manufacture these most advanced chips. It's not just building the factory and start producing. You need the process technology that takes massive investment in the tens of billions of dollars.

Intel has close to near peer capability with TSMC on the leading edge, and can easily manufacture on nodes for automotive applications, however Intel doesn't manufacture for anybody but themselves/subsidiaries (this will be changing with the announcement of Intel Foundry Services this year, but the fabs aren't built yet).

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Yes, it is as simple as the problem being we've outsourced our chip manufacturing to overseas companies. These companies mastered the complex fabbing because we (the US) decided we didn't want to invest in having the fabrication capability here.

This isn't true. TSMC has been the leading logic foundry for DECADES. And it's been due to technical leadership, not cost. There's plenty of leading edge US domestic fabs, however, they either haven't offered foundry services to anybody else (Intel), or are in a different segment (memory).

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I didn't say we should take the lead in manufacturing these chips. The fact we don't have an alternative is shameful. There are fab plants here in the US. Micron has if I recall two plants. One of them is in Manassas Virginia where I've visited personally. Spending the money to ensure at least some fab capability in the US seems way cheaper than all the lost revenue from product sitting because it's missing one component.

There are plenty of fabs in the US (Intel, Samsung, Micron, Global Foundries, and the handful of really legacy node ones), however a logic fab isn't the same as a memory fab. So Micron's fabs can't produce the logic chips that TSMC does. Global Foundries (which is a logic fab company) literally had all the money in the world (owned by Abu Dhabi) and they couldn't build a strong enough engineering culture to compete with TSMC (they ended up licensing processes from Samsung for their newer nodes).

[Vivek.]

Given that this discussion has been entirely about chips, it seems most people agree why my initial impression of the video: who really cares? Unless he got some rock chips or the car wasn't warmed up properly there's nothing wrong with going 148 in a C8. I don't fully understand why this warranted a brand new car but if I was the owner I'd gladly take that offer too.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Vivek.

Given that this discussion has been entirely about chips, it seems most people agree why my initial impression of the video: who really cares? Unless he got some rock chips or the car wasn't warmed up properly there's nothing wrong with going 148 in a C8. I don't fully understand why this warranted a brand new car but if I was the owner I'd gladly take that offer too.

Because it shows that they don't treat people's cars with respect. If this is commonplace, what other things do they do that you aren't seeing?

[TXSTYLE]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Because it shows that they don't treat people's cars with respect. If this is commonplace, what other things do they do that you aren't seeing?

THIS