[adc]

Originally Posted by SoCali E36

That's not true. I'm still surprised that people still think that everybody's going to be driving an electric car. Have you been to Los Angeles? Have you seen how many apartment buildings we have here that are not capable of electric charging stations? Have you seen how many small businesses do not offer stations? A future of electric cars is simply a dream right now. Electric cars are a luxury and only people with money can afford them. Both the cars and the stations to charge them. Let's get this electric car utopia idea out of peoples heads.

I don’t own an EV, but I see it coming.

To be fair, those apartment buildings in LA don’t have a gas station in the forecourt, yet it doesn’t prevent their occupants from moving around in ICE cars. Similarly, 10 years from now, they may be able to pull into an EV charging station around the block and top off in 10 or 20 min. A small inconvenience perhaps compared to the 3-5 min it takes to top off an ICE today, but more than balanced by the money saving IMO.

[Evrim]

Originally Posted by Tallest

Car companies are always forced to adopt. They now prioritised all production due to chip shortage to EVs. THey can avoid paying large fines on CO2 this way. And EV is more money for them. IN part they offload some cost to tax payer (tax credits). In part, theyll still charge you huge dealer hours for any repairs and warranties. So they just adopt and make great money doing it. Thats the number one reason we will go EV, it is MORE profitable to build EVs now, Tesla showed it. In 5 years all major car companies willl have as many EV to ICE ratio but in the reverse of what it is today. 5 Series will be all EV, plus M5. POrsche will have all cars EV, except 911 Hybrid. Etc etc.

The biggest lie is when car companies tell you EV is gonna be cheaper to service to get you to buy it. Whose skill will cost you more - a grease monkey or Youtuber who self taught himself, or an IT guy with laptop who has to fix your expensive EV? You know the answer to that. Car dealerships will keep their margins by hiking labour for fixing your car.

Another point of view to the costs and profits of EVs is creating the funds for R&D and improve the technology. Needless to say that R&D is an expensive thing. For example for BMW, announced figures are roughly 6,5-7% of all sales, which is around 6-7000 m eur.

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by Evrim

Another point of view to the costs and profits of EVs is creating the funds for R&D and improve the technology. Needless to say that R&D is an expensive thing. For example for BMW, announced figures are roughly 6,5-7% of all sales, which is around 6-7000 m eur.

It is not huge, but not little.

VW Paid 30bn in fines for dieselgate. Imagine if instead of paying it to... whom (no one knows, probably stolen in the end)? they would have been forced to invest into EVs? ... Im sure likes of Tesla happy that their competition gets squashed by such fines. Frankly, this kind of fine Id have questioned presence in US market and close factories even. Just say "we go to China" and see if that fine would be reasonable, but I digress. The amount of money wasted by car companies on designing mood lighting aka stupid sh.t, rather than technology - is mind boggling, overall.

[SoCali E36]

Originally Posted by adc

I don’t own an EV, but I see it coming.

To be fair, those apartment buildings in LA don’t have a gas station in the forecourt, yet it doesn’t prevent their occupants from moving around in ICE cars. Similarly, 10 years from now, they may be able to pull into an EV charging station around the block and top off in 10 or 20 min. A small inconvenience perhaps compared to the 3-5 min it takes to top off an ICE today, but more than balanced by the money saving IMO.

I simply don't see that happening. I may be wrong but just observing what's currently transpiring and the type of people who are buying EVs I don't see it being the "future".

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

Then probably you don't need to be a car designer to make a great handling car, I hate to say this but my 50k Tesla 3 is more fun than my "well balanced " m5 on a twisty road.

Your perception of driving experience is very different than mine. This is the perfect time to sell the M5. If you think it's worst than a freaking Tesla Model 3 (Which is worst than a Golf, IMO), it's kind of ridiculous that you still have the M5.

[ghaffari46]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Your perception of driving experience is very different than mine. This is the perfect time to sell the M5. If you think it's worst than a freaking Tesla Model 3 (Which is worst than a Golf, IMO), it's kind of ridiculous that you still have the M5.

You don't know me and please Don't judge my driving, I used to have many BMWs in the last 35 years and I still have 3 BMWs in my garage. I'm a bmw guy and I think m5 is the best you can do with a salon with an ICE. I still spend many hours on the track driving BMWs each year, for fun.
I bought a Tesla 3 performance to see what is all the fuss about, and I found it fascinating. If it is available for you go ahead and test drive one with an open mind. I haven't driven the Tesla on the track, but many car journalists have found Tesla 3 performance faster than a m3 on the track. You may not like it, but you can not change facts.

If you like a brand you should be open minded about criticizing their products, that way you may be able to contribute to its progress.

I believe bmw can easily beat Tesla in the future, but it needs to step up its game.
Both of the current BMW electric cars, i4 and ix, especially i4 looks a bit half baked. You can not compete with a fully electric designed car by just putting an electric motor and battery in a chassis which is designed for an ICE engine. For this reason I don't think i4 makes a dent in Tesla sales.

At the end, cars are just cars. To make us happy or take us from a to b, or hopefully both.

Happy holidays.

[Hi]

From the factory images, BMW has the real estate to add a frunk, but decides to mount the cooler vertical - oppose to other manufactures mounting the cooler at an angle. A vertically mounted cooler requires significant space in front and behind for proper air flow; which originates from the bottom of the vehicle.

Seems like a missed opportunity for BMW to make some coin selling frunk mats, cargo nets and accessories.

[sward]

Maybe this is a design decision they had to do to get better airflow through the radiator and as a result of that get better mileage????

[ghaffari46]

Originally Posted by MarcosLepre

Question, why can some BEV designed vehicles like the Tesla S, Rivian, Lucid Air, F-150 can offer a Frunk but yet others like the IX cannot. I think this is an important offering for any BEV car, specially an EV that was designed as an EV from the start. I think this is a packaging miss.

100% agree with you, as I'm writing this I'm on the road (not driving!) in a Tesla 3 with 3 members of family and a dog (not big) and luggage for about a week trip. Forget about i4, I don't think you can do that even in an ix!

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

I'm not an automotive designer but my understanding is that an electric car give more freedom of design to optimize the space utilization of the car. I think bmw failed this mission

I don't understand your ranting at all.
Are you not aware that both i4 and iX are built on modified ICE platform? So yes, there would be compromises as compared with a dedicated EV platform.

But judging from all the reviews, BMW has done a remarkable job. The fact that i4 was awarded with one of the most efficient EVs out there and head-to-head with Model 3 is an amazing feat using an ICE platform. It is a lot quieter than Model 3, built better (and it has way point navigation, cross traffic alert and avoidance, 3 zone climate control, true 360 surround view with front cameras and HUD) and some reviewers prefer BMW's handling.

100% agree with you, as I'm writing this I'm on the road (not driving!) in a Tesla 3 with 3 members of family and a dog (not big) and luggage for about a week trip. Forget about i4, I don't think you can do that even in an ix!

Well, on paper at least, iX has more cargo space than Model 3 frunk+trunk combined, and definitely more useable as a SUV cargo space.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

You don't know me and please Don't judge my driving, I used to have many BMWs in the last 35 years and I still have 3 BMWs in my garage. I'm a bmw guy and I think m5 is the best you can do with a salon with an ICE. I still spend many hours on the track driving BMWs each year, for fun.
I bought a Tesla 3 performance to see what is all the fuss about, and I found it fascinating. If it is available for you go ahead and test drive one with an open mind. I haven't driven the Tesla on the track, but many car journalists have found Tesla 3 performance faster than a m3 on the track. You may not like it, but you can not change facts.

If you like a brand you should be open minded about criticizing their products, that way you may be able to contribute to its progress.

I believe bmw can easily beat Tesla in the future, but it needs to step up its game.
Both of the current BMW electric cars, i4 and ix, especially i4 looks a bit half baked. You can not compete with a fully electric designed car by just putting an electric motor and battery in a chassis which is designed for an ICE engine. For this reason I don't think i4 makes a dent in Tesla sales.

At the end, cars are just cars. To make us happy or take us from a to b, or hopefully both.

Happy holidays.

I'm not judging your driving, everybody has different taste. I did drive Model 3 and Model Y before I bought my M340i, because I'm open minded and I wanted to try them... They were a huge disappointment. And I spent a whole weekend with a Model S that Tesla landed me for no reason - I still don't know why . And I could understand being fascinating with them, but, personally, ME, I would never understand calling it better than M5. Well, let alone M5, I'd say, IMO, pretty much ANYTHING $30K+ coming from Germany is better than any Tesla.

Oh also, I was in Cannes, France last summer, I called for a cab to go to the airport and a Tesla Model X showed up! The interior of it was reminiscent of a Ford Transit or something. The seats weren't comfortable, there was no ambient lighting of any sort, and the material quality was like a taxi cab you'd take in NYC. There was wind noise that you wouldn't even hear in a German car from 90s. I definitely don't understand paying $100K+ over that thing. I truly believe that if you buy that, you either are totally ignorant of the entirety of the car world at that price level, or you're in the Tesla cult.

And ix isn't half baked at all, and from what I've seen I don't think Tesla has the talent in house to build a car like ix when it comes to interior, ergonomics, build quality, comfort, driving experience, etc. Tesla has absolutely nothing on ix other than three things: 'frunk', self driving and the charging network.

But i4 is kind of half-baked, I can agree with that, but in context it makes sense: it's kind of geared towards 3 series customers who want to -or who are forced to- go electric. It's built on the promise of familiarity.

[ghaffari46]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

I'm not judging your driving, everybody has different taste. I did drive Model 3 and Model Y before I bought my M340i, because I'm open minded and I wanted to try them... They were a huge disappointment. And I spent a whole weekend with a Model S that Tesla landed me for no reason - I still don't know why . And I could understand being fascinating with them, but, personally, ME, I would never understand calling it better than M5. Well, let alone M5, I'd say, IMO, pretty much ANYTHING $30K+ coming from Germany is better than any Tesla.

Oh also, I was in Cannes, France last summer, I called for a cab to go to the airport and a Tesla Model X showed up! The interior of it was reminiscent of a Ford Transit or something. The seats weren't comfortable, there was no ambient lighting of any sort, and the material quality was like a taxi cab you'd take in NYC. There was wind noise that you wouldn't even hear in a German car from 90s. I definitely don't understand paying $100K+ over that thing. I truly believe that if you buy that, you either are totally ignorant of the entirety of the car world at that price level, or you're in the Tesla cult.

And ix isn't half baked at all, and from what I've seen I don't think Tesla has the talent in house to build a car like ix when it comes to interior, ergonomics, build quality, comfort, driving experience, etc. Tesla has absolutely nothing on ix other than three things: 'frunk', self driving and the charging network.

But i4 is kind of half-baked, I can agree with that, but in context it makes sense: it's kind of geared towards 3 series customers who want to -or who are forced to- go electric. It's built on the promise of familiarity.

I agree with most of your points, but at the end market talks: bmw sold 30k 3 series and Tesla sold north of 200k model 3 in last year in US. My office parking lot used to be full of 3 and 5 series and c class and E classes, but now Teslas are taking over. Some of that is because of smart distribution super chargers, smart marketing ( by not doing any traditional marketing at all!) and effortlessnesses of having an electric car. But we have to admit a high torque "low situated battery" car is a damn fun thing to drive.
Again, I agree that bmw is still carrying the crown, but it sounds like that it is being "forced" to build an electric car rather than doing it passionately the way it made i8 or m3.
Speaking of i8, it's my daily driving car and I hope bmw makes an update electric version of i8 with 500 plus HP in the near feature, that's gonna be a huge achievement.

Cheers

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Akgq

The issue today is not switching to electric cars or stopping ICE engine, assuming in 10-15 years we all switch to electric cars we will face an issue of how do we power them. If they are powered by electricity that is produced by fossil fuel then u didn’t change anything.

This is not true, coal power plants are still more efficient than average gas vehicles. The older, less efficient gas vehicles will phase out first so going EV is still net positive, even if entire fleet runs on coal power plants

https://www.forbes.com/sites/enriquedans/2018/08/19/myths-and-shibboleths-about-electric-vehicles-the-long-tailpipe-theory/

[karguy95]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

You don't know me and please Don't judge my driving, I used to have many BMWs in the last 35 years and I still have 3 BMWs in my garage. I'm a bmw guy and I think m5 is the best you can do with a salon with an ICE. I still spend many hours on the track driving BMWs each year, for fun.
I bought a Tesla 3 performance to see what is all the fuss about, and I found it fascinating. If it is available for you go ahead and test drive one with an open mind. I haven't driven the Tesla on the track, but many car journalists have found Tesla 3 performance faster than a m3 on the track. You may not like it, but you can not change facts.

If you like a brand you should be open minded about criticizing their products, that way you may be able to contribute to its progress.

I believe bmw can easily beat Tesla in the future, but it needs to step up its game.
Both of the current BMW electric cars, i4 and ix, especially i4 looks a bit half baked. You can not compete with a fully electric designed car by just putting an electric motor and battery in a chassis which is designed for an ICE engine. For this reason I don't think i4 makes a dent in Tesla sales.

At the end, cars are just cars. To make us happy or take us from a to b, or hopefully both.

Happy holidays.

Absolutely correct! I have said this time and time again but people are too blinded by their egos. I love BMW and waiting to order the facelifted G80 M3 and was hoping the i4 would replace my Model 3 P but like you said it's totally half Baked plus my spec its around 77k US and for what? not even a frunk? no quirky infotainment system to keep me and friends entertained while charging? They totally dropped the ball and I will be keeping my M3P until they make something better. Overall the Model 3 is a better bargain, better performing, and overall better car than the i4 (IMO).

[karguy95]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

I'm not judging your driving, everybody has different taste. I did drive Model 3 and Model Y before I bought my M340i, because I'm open minded and I wanted to try them... They were a huge disappointment. And I spent a whole weekend with a Model S that Tesla landed me for no reason - I still don't know why . And I could understand being fascinating with them, but, personally, ME, I would never understand calling it better than M5. Well, let alone M5, I'd say, IMO, pretty much ANYTHING $30K+ coming from Germany is better than any Tesla.

Oh also, I was in Cannes, France last summer, I called for a cab to go to the airport and a Tesla Model X showed up! The interior of it was reminiscent of a Ford Transit or something. The seats weren't comfortable, there was no ambient lighting of any sort, and the material quality was like a taxi cab you'd take in NYC. There was wind noise that you wouldn't even hear in a German car from 90s. I definitely don't understand paying $100K+ over that thing. I truly believe that if you buy that, you either are totally ignorant of the entirety of the car world at that price level, or you're in the Tesla cult.

And ix isn't half baked at all, and from what I've seen I don't think Tesla has the talent in house to build a car like ix when it comes to interior, ergonomics, build quality, comfort, driving experience, etc. Tesla has absolutely nothing on ix other than three things: 'frunk', self driving and the charging network.

But i4 is kind of half-baked, I can agree with that, but in context it makes sense: it's kind of geared towards 3 series customers who want to -or who are forced to- go electric. It's built on the promise of familiarity.

Everything you've said while it is factual is flawed, here's why. regarding the model X in particular, What EV SUV can fit 5-7 people has a 250-mile range, and is that fast for that price range? That justifies its price.
Again we all like to for Tesla interior quality. Yes it's not up to par with Germans but why do we even expect that? What American car has comparable quality to any of the big 3 Audi,Merc, BMW? Let's look at their car subjectively and what they offer and can do compared to all other brands or their competitors? This is where there is value. the Plaid is faster than a Bugatti for a mere $140k (up to 140mph) Come on what German car is faster than a Bugatti from a dig right now? Now that I hope you understand where Tesla stands in the auto market this does not mean Germans won't catch up. Remember Tesla has been at this game since 2011 that right there is enough to give them their due respect. The numbers don't die they are out-selling everyone a car brand that is less than 20 years old, out-competing brands that have been around before our grandparents were born. No hate here just arguing that we should be subjective when we compare cars. We as car people only account for less than 5% of the market. Most people just want a fancy well-branded car that they can brag to their peers about doesn't matter if they interior quality is shit.

[adc]

Originally Posted by ghaffari46

You don't know me and please Don't judge my driving, I used to have many BMWs in the last 35 years and I still have 3 BMWs in my garage. I'm a bmw guy and I think m5 is the best you can do with a salon with an ICE. I still spend many hours on the track driving BMWs each year, for fun.
I bought a Tesla 3 performance to see what is all the fuss about, and I found it fascinating. If it is available for you go ahead and test drive one with an open mind. I haven't driven the Tesla on the track, but many car journalists have found Tesla 3 performance faster than a m3 on the track. You may not like it, but you can not change facts.

If you like a brand you should be open minded about criticizing their products, that way you may be able to contribute to its progress.

I believe bmw can easily beat Tesla in the future, but it needs to step up its game.
Both of the current BMW electric cars, i4 and ix, especially i4 looks a bit half baked. You can not compete with a fully electric designed car by just putting an electric motor and battery in a chassis which is designed for an ICE engine. For this reason I don't think i4 makes a dent in Tesla sales.

At the end, cars are just cars. To make us happy or take us from a to b, or hopefully both.

Happy holidays.

How many laps can you do in your Model 3P on the track? I’m not talking about potential, but actual.

I’d love to see you at one of the track events, see what a Tesla is capable of. I’m waiting to have my mind changed, and this is no bull.

I cannot afford a Plaid, but can definitely afford a model 3. Let’s see it…

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by adc

How many laps can you do in your Model 3P on the track? I’m not talking about potential, but actual.

I’d love to see you at one of the track events, see what a Tesla is capable of. I’m waiting to have my mind changed, and this is no bull.

I cannot afford a Plaid, but can definitely afford a model 3. Let’s see it…

Long time friend of mine. He started tracking in his B5 S5, has also done it in is Golf R, Alfa Giulia, 996 GT3 and now his Model 3. Oh, he also has an NA Miata....with a 4.9L V8 out of a Fox Body Mustang Cobra!

He said he's now eclipsed his GT3 lap times at Lime Rock in his Tesla.

Here's a video of a full 20 minute session at Laguna in a Model 3 P

A friend of mine has had 5 Teslas, including S P100D, Model 3P and now a Taycan Turbo S. The Taycan can't complete a 20 minute session without thermal throttling any more than a Model 3 can...they are about the same there. The Turbo S is faster, brakes and suspension MUCH better, as you would expect...but the Turbo S also cost THREE TIMES as much.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Long time friend of mine. He started tracking in his B5 S5, has also done it in is Golf R, Alfa Giulia, 996 GT3 and now his Model 3. Oh, he also has an NA Miata....with a 4.9L V8 out of a Fox Body Mustang Cobra!

He said he's now eclipsed his GT3 lap times at Lime Rock in his Tesla.

Here's a video of a full 20 minute session at Laguna in a Model 3 P

A friend of mine has had 5 Teslas, including S P100D, Model 3P and now a Taycan Turbo S. The Taycan can't complete a 20 minute session without thermal throttling any more than a Model 3 can...they are about the same there. The Turbo S is faster, brakes and suspension MUCH better, as you would expect...but the Turbo S also cost THREE TIMES as much.

Interesting. Almost there. Get to a legitimate 30 min in the summer and it’s sufficient. Been seeing people who tune/hack their Tesla’s for improved battery cooling, to maintain performance all the way down to empty.

Do your friends get to fast charge the cars between sessions?


I’ve run across NA V8 Miata’s on slicks. They look and sound faster than they are.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Long time friend of mine. He started tracking in his B5 S5, has also done it in is Golf R, Alfa Giulia, 996 GT3 and now his Model 3. Oh, he also has an NA Miata....with a 4.9L V8 out of a Fox Body Mustang Cobra!

He said he's now eclipsed his GT3 lap times at Lime Rock in his Tesla.

Here's a video of a full 20 minute session at Laguna in a Model 3 P

A friend of mine has had 5 Teslas, including S P100D, Model 3P and now a Taycan Turbo S. The Taycan can't complete a 20 minute session without thermal throttling any more than a Model 3 can...they are about the same there. The Turbo S is faster, brakes and suspension MUCH better, as you would expect...but the Turbo S also cost THREE TIMES as much.

cool vids! thanks for posting them.
It is good that the car can last for a 20 minute session while being reasonably quick and not go into a really horrible limp mode or run out of battery, however he pretty much got 1 lap at full power and I suspect that most people who are into tracking their performance cars would not find that very acceptable.

As a street car, it doesn't really matter, but they need to drastically improve the cooling ability if they are going to try and make these useable as track cars.

I am now curious to know if all the other EVs have the same cooling issues when pushing the car hard like this... I would think that most will indeed have the same thing happen, but I wonder if there are some that have better cooling like maybe the Taycan?

[freshxdough]

Definitely don't recommend opening the hood for any customers. There is no reason for a customer to go under the hood in the iX.

1. There is no hood prop so unless you have a rod or two pocket screwdrivers laying around, you're going to be holding the hood up with your hands or your head.
2. If the hood is not opened and closed carefully you can very easily gouge the paint on the left and the right side A pillar. It is recommended to tape off the area to protect it. Trust me, I've already seen it on a training car.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by freshxdough

Definitely don't recommend opening the hood for any customers. There is no reason for a customer to go under the hood in the iX.

1. There is no hood prop so unless you have a rod or two pocket screwdrivers laying around, you're going to be holding the hood up with your hands or your head.
2. If the hood is not opened and closed carefully you can very easily gouge the paint on the left and the right side A pillar. It is recommended to tape off the area to protect it. Trust me, I've already seen it on a training car.

Is there a way to boost another car with the 12V battery without popping the hood open?

[freshxdough]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

Is there a way to boost another car with the 12V battery without popping the hood open?

No. I would not recommend boosting another car using your iX. The iX does not have a conventional starter battery that you typically see in BMWs. Usually in the range of 90-105 amp hours. The iX battery is a 60amp battery if I'm not mistaken.