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      04-14-2022, 12:33 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
That is only a thing if there's something wrong with the batteries in the car.
That is not correct. Many people have tested that EV batteries decline non-linearly with an initial drop (i.e. in the first few months), which then continues to decline but at a far more moderate pace until the end of its life where a battery will see a final significant drop.








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Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
Degradation is better measured in miles driven, but in average, you should have about 2% degradation in the first 3 years or less, then about 4% in the first 7 years.
Miles driven or range is not at all a good way to measure degradation. The amount of energy you can get out of the pack is the best way to measure it. The miles driven/range is a result of usable capacity, but there are tons of things that can make that vary that have nothing to do with the battery pack which can make you consume more energy (i.e. different HVAC settings, colder weather).










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Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
The top buffer does make sense if you don't want to know it's happening to the battery, but it's going to happen regardless, why not benefit from the full range before it does? I guess it's a preference, but that top buffer will make the EV less attractive as they can't advertise it's full range.
I agree that some power users would prefer having full access to the battery pack cause they know what they are doing and could potentially benefit from it. But advertising a full range that will only be true when the car is brand new for a few months would be qualified by most as deceptive marketing. I'd rather it be able to live up to 500km of range for as long as the car is under warranty than to be told it can do 550km and lose that extra 50km in the first year or two.
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      04-14-2022, 01:08 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by ggalanis View Post
That is not correct. Many people have tested that EV batteries decline non-linearly with an initial drop (i.e. in the first few months), which then continues to decline but at a far more moderate pace until the end of its life where a battery will see a final significant drop.
I agree the decline is faster at first, given I mentioned a 2% drop in the first 3 years then another 2% in the next 4 years. You mentioned a "spike", that's not a thing, there's no spike, just a "slightly" steeper curb.

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Originally Posted by ggalanis View Post
Miles driven or range is not at all a good way to measure degradation. The amount of energy you can get out of the pack is the best way to measure it. The miles driven/range is a result of usable capacity, but there are tons of things that can make that vary that have nothing to do with the battery pack which can make you consume more energy (i.e. different HVAC settings, colder weather).
I meant the decline is better measured after miles driven vs after years of ownership. Clearly, if you floor it after every red light and after every stop sign the range will drop on that specific charge

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Originally Posted by ggalanis View Post
I agree that some power users would prefer having full access to the battery pack cause they know what they are doing and could potentially benefit from it. But advertising a full range that will only be true when the car is brand new for a few months would be qualified by most as deceptive marketing. I'd rather it be able to live up to 500km of range for as long as the car is under warranty than to be told it can do 550km and lose that extra 50km in the first year or two.
In the US we use EPA estimates which is where the range of the car is tested in very specific conditions, real world estimates vary greatly. If you drive conservatively you will easily go over these estimates.

Not having a top buffer is purely a preference thing; you're talking about a 10% top buffer which simply does not exist in any EV today, just so it compensates for the natural degradation. Battery degradation is real, we should be mindful of it, not try to hide it, it's part of any EV ownership.

Cheers!
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      04-15-2022, 09:29 AM   #91
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I agree the decline is faster at first, given I mentioned a 2% drop in the first 3 years then another 2% in the next 4 years. You mentioned a "spike", that's not a thing, there's no spike, just a "slightly" steeper curb.
You can see the attached pic (from https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/) for what is the expected degradation of a EV battery. I called that initial degradation a spike, i.e. a noticeably higher amount of degradation.

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Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
you're talking about a 10% top buffer which simply does not exist in any EV today
The numbers I used were to simply keep the math easy when I would then give an estimated range figure to go along with it. I didn't say that they were the accurate numbers for any car on the market.
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      04-15-2022, 09:46 AM   #92
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Not quite the same, but I have a few 16kwh li-ion home batteries from LG Chem that are probably very similar to the cells they use in EVs. These packs are rated for 10 years or 54Mwh of use, which is 3,750 full discharges (stopping at 10%). The warranty says it should have at least 70% capacity after those ten years of torture. I don't discharge nearly as often or deeply with my EV as my home batteries do nightly.
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      04-15-2022, 09:47 AM   #93
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I ask, because as someone that isn't keeping it long term, outside of warranty complications, why not charge it to 100% unless the owner's manual gives a definite AC charge top end percentage?
Because doing so will degrade the battery faster, reducing the amount of charge it can hold, and lowering your eventual resale or trade-in value. Why would someone buy your car with 250 mile range versus another of the same vintage with 300 mile range? Just an example.

Knowing that charging to 100% would stress the pack is enough for me not to do it unless I really needed the range. I like to take care of my valuable possessions as that will make them last longer, have fewer issues, and ensures that when I sell the vehicle the buyer is getting one that has been cared for and is in excellent condition.

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Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
That is only a thing if there's something wrong with the batteries in the car. Degradation is better measured in miles driven, but in average, you should have about 2% degradation in the first 3 years or less, then about 4% in the first 7 years.
Is this from experience? My 9 year old Model S w/ 127,000 miles degraded 13% over the course of its life. I've never heard of only 4% degradation in 7 years. Do you have a link to those numbers?

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Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
The top buffer does make sense if you don't want to know it's happening to the battery, but it's going to happen regardless, why not benefit from the full range before it does? I guess it's a preference, but that top buffer will make the EV less attractive as they can't advertise it's full range.
A top buffer gives stable user-facing range, reduces overall degradation across the vehicle's life, creates the impression that the batteries are better and more reliable, and all combines for a better overall ownership experience and marketability of the brand.
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      04-15-2022, 10:33 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NomoTesla View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSchnee View Post
I ask, because as someone that isn't keeping it long term, outside of warranty complications, why not charge it to 100% unless the owner's manual gives a definite AC charge top end percentage?
Because doing so will degrade the battery faster, reducing the amount of charge it can hold, and lowering your eventual resale or trade-in value. Why would someone buy your car with 250 mile range versus another of the same vintage with 300 mile range? Just an example.

Knowing that charging to 100% would stress the pack is enough for me not to do it unless I really needed the range. I like to take care of my valuable possessions as that will make them last longer, have fewer issues, and ensures that when I sell the vehicle the buyer is getting one that has been cared for and is in excellent condition.

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Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
That is only a thing if there's something wrong with the batteries in the car. Degradation is better measured in miles driven, but in average, you should have about 2% degradation in the first 3 years or less, then about 4% in the first 7 years.
Is this from experience? My 9 year old Model S w/ 127,000 miles degraded 13% over the course of its life. I've never heard of only 4% degradation in 7 years. Do you have a link to those numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
The top buffer does make sense if you don't want to know it's happening to the battery, but it's going to happen regardless, why not benefit from the full range before it does? I guess it's a preference, but that top buffer will make the EV less attractive as they can't advertise it's full range.
A top buffer gives stable user-facing range, reduces overall degradation across the vehicle's life, creates the impression that the batteries are better and more reliable, and all combines for a better overall ownership experience and marketability of the brand.
My iPhone has a battery health function that shows me the % of maximum charge that I'm currently getting. Anything like that on any EV's? That would be a useful feature. Maybe it could also tell you when your habits are harming the battery beyond some sort of benchmark "normal" wear and tear curve.
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      04-15-2022, 10:35 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Bird~Dawg View Post
My iPhone has a battery health function that shows me the % of maximum charge that I'm currently getting. Anything like that on any EV's? That would be a useful feature. Maybe it could also tell you when your habits are harming the battery beyond some sort of benchmark "normal" wear and tear curve.
No because doing so would likely send the wrong consumer message.
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      04-15-2022, 12:13 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NomoTesla View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSchnee View Post
I ask, because as someone that isn't keeping it long term, outside of warranty complications, why not charge it to 100% unless the owner's manual gives a definite AC charge top end percentage?
Because doing so will degrade the battery faster, reducing the amount of charge it can hold, and lowering your eventual resale or trade-in value. Why would someone buy your car with 250 mile range versus another of the same vintage with 300 mile range? Just an example.

Knowing that charging to 100% would stress the pack is enough for me not to do it unless I really needed the range. I like to take care of my valuable possessions as that will make them last longer, have fewer issues, and ensures that when I sell the vehicle the buyer is getting one that has been cared for and is in excellent condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
That is only a thing if there's something wrong with the batteries in the car. Degradation is better measured in miles driven, but in average, you should have about 2% degradation in the first 3 years or less, then about 4% in the first 7 years.
Is this from experience? My 9 year old Model S w/ 127,000 miles degraded 13% over the course of its life. I've never heard of only 4% degradation in 7 years. Do you have a link to those numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
The top buffer does make sense if you don't want to know it's happening to the battery, but it's going to happen regardless, why not benefit from the full range before it does? I guess it's a preference, but that top buffer will make the EV less attractive as they can't advertise it's full range.
A top buffer gives stable user-facing range, reduces overall degradation across the vehicle's life, creates the impression that the batteries are better and more reliable, and all combines for a better overall ownership experience and marketability of the brand.
[QUOTE=NomoTesla;28802146]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSchnee View Post
I ask, because as someone that isn't keeping it long term, outside of warranty complications, why not charge it to 100% unless the owner's manual gives a definite AC charge top end percentage?
Because doing so will degrade the battery faster, reducing the amount of charge it can hold, and lowering your eventual resale or trade-in value. Why would someone buy your car with 250 mile range versus another of the same vintage with 300 mile range? Just an example.

Knowing that charging to 100% would stress the pack is enough for me not to do it unless I really needed the range. I like to take care of my valuable possessions as that will make them last longer, have fewer issues, and ensures that when I sell the vehicle the buyer is getting one that has been cared for and is in excellent condition.

How long would it take for range to drop that substantially though? If I sold it in 4-5 years, would there be a noticeable decline, or does that hit around 8-10? I am asking since, other than 80%-100% takes a lot longer charge time, there doesn't seem to be a standard line of top end charge recommendations amongst companies. I will set the top end to whatever the owner's manual says, but was curious as to why a shallow charging cycle to 100% is worse for the battery than constantly charging to 80%.
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      04-15-2022, 12:58 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NomoTesla View Post
Is this from experience? My 9 year old Model S w/ 127,000 miles degraded 13% over the course of its life. I've never heard of only 4% degradation in 7 years. Do you have a link to those numbers?
No, even though we had 3 electric vehicles to date (All Chevy, sorry BMW), I didn't keep them for more than 12-24 months in general, so I can't comment from experience on the long term ownership. What I can comment on is on short term ownership, there's no such thing as quick degradation in battery, even after 12 months (about 18,000 miles driven) I was still getting close to 100% of usable battery capacity (over 98.0%).

Since I'm planning to keep the i4 for longer than 3 years (I always plan to though) I started looking into battery degradation for BMW specifically half a year ago, and I found several sources about i3 at about 70,000 miles (Which is around how much I'm planning on driving it for 3 years, I'm guessing 55-60,000 miles for me) . From my research I found there to be anywhere between sub 2% to 5% degradation. I'm unable to find the 7 year article, I could've mixed numbers, I stand corrected.

As far as the others:
- https://insideevs.com/news/334057/bm...than-expected/ - 4% loss after 70,000 miles
- https://evcharging.enelx.com/resourc...r-battery-life - individual owner report after 70,000 miles less than 2% loss
- https://thedriven.io/2021/08/30/ev-g...mal-fuel-cost/ - individual owner report 4% after 80,000 miles

From BMW owner's perspective, the battery degradation seems to be low compared to others.
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      04-15-2022, 02:20 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruzer666 View Post
What I can comment on is on short term ownership, there's no such thing as quick degradation in battery, even after 12 months (about 18,000 miles driven) I was still getting close to 100% of usable battery capacity (over 98.0%).
The fact you never noticed an initial loss in capacity/range is exactly why the top end buffers are there. If you had access to the full gross capacity, you would have noticed a more severe initial drop. Nothing catastrophic, but a couple kWh would have gone missing.

That is one of the functions of the buffer... that few kWh you would lose almost right away would annoy most people, so some of that buffer is used to hide that.

Without knowing which EVs you have experience with, I'm going to bet that they all used buffers like this and never gave you access to the full capacity and masked that initial drop.

Several EV focused youtubers (Bjorn, Kyle from out of spec reviews) have mentioned it and specified something like 6 months or so but I am not going to try and hunt down videos where they have talked about it.

In essence, it is nothing to be concerned with, but it does exist. Nowadays, most if not all companies just take measures to avoid it being noticeable by their customers.
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      04-15-2022, 06:13 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggalanis View Post
Without knowing which EVs you have experience with, I'm going to bet that they all used buffers like this and never gave you access to the full capacity and masked that initial drop.
I wonder if the EV software is smart enough to slide the charge capacity buffer as the battery degrades, as opposed to using a fixed battery capacity ?

As an aside, I have a few friends who now classify as long time (>6yrs) Model S&X owners. They report battery degradation in the range of 15-20%
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      04-15-2022, 08:29 PM   #100
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TheIX: Question for you.

I didn't get a chance to test this out, but can you switch from drive to reverse at low speeds (~3 mph) without hitting the brake?

This is a pretty neat feature on Teslas (and probably other EVs) and makes executing 3 point turns a lot smoother.
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      04-21-2022, 04:23 PM   #101
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Quote:
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I wonder if the EV software is smart enough to slide the charge capacity buffer as the battery degrades, as opposed to using a fixed battery capacity ?

As an aside, I have a few friends who now classify as long time (>6yrs) Model S&X owners. They report battery degradation in the range of 15-20%
Yep, my 5 yrs old Model X with 68k miles had 13% degradation when I sold it.

TheIX , how's the efficiency with the current miles you have? Thanks.
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      04-21-2022, 04:36 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotzillar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by slampert View Post
I wonder if the EV software is smart enough to slide the charge capacity buffer as the battery degrades, as opposed to using a fixed battery capacity ?

As an aside, I have a few friends who now classify as long time (>6yrs) Model S&X owners. They report battery degradation in the range of 15-20%
Yep, my 5 yrs old Model X with 68k miles had 13% degradation when I sold it.

TheIX , how's the efficiency with the current miles you have? Thanks.
With 439mi on the clock I'm seeing an average of 2.4mi/kWh. Mostly in town driving with lots of fairly steep hills

Temps here have been fairly cold ranging in the high 20s to mid 40s
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      04-22-2022, 09:25 AM   #103
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With 439mi on the clock I'm seeing an average of 2.4mi/kWh. Mostly in town driving with lots of fairly steep hills

Temps here have been fairly cold ranging in the high 20s to mid 40s
That's pretty bad overall, but reasonable considering the temps. No such problems here in Arizona. Suspect we will get 300+ mile range with our M60 event hough it's estimated EPA rating is 280 miles. I always get better than EPA on my EVs because I drive conservatively and usually in balmy weather. Also helps the battery to degrade less over time and better for the car overall.
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      04-22-2022, 09:46 AM   #104
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Sure 2.4mi/kwh is not pretty but for fairness, my 2017 Model X averaged 3mi/kwh with 68k miles in Houston...
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      04-22-2022, 09:47 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NomoTesla View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheIX View Post
With 439mi on the clock I'm seeing an average of 2.4mi/kWh. Mostly in town driving with lots of fairly steep hills

Temps here have been fairly cold ranging in the high 20s to mid 40s
That's pretty bad overall, but reasonable considering the temps. No such problems here in Arizona. Suspect we will get 300+ mile range with our M60 event hough it's estimated EPA rating is 280 miles. I always get better than EPA on my EVs because I drive conservatively and usually in balmy weather. Also helps the battery to degrade less over time and better for the car overall.
Not sure where you are in Arizona but at highway speeds you may also see improvements due to lower density atmosphere.

In Utah we are at about 5000 feet. This means the atmosphere is about 14% less dense than at sea level. Bad for ICE cars, they make less power. But good for EVs fighting air resistance. It does seem to make a small but measurable difference.

When comparing notes on the e-tron forums I often have some of the best range numbers. For an EPA rated 222 mile car, once I went over 220 miles on a single charge and had 20 miles left on the meter. Last summer we did a 600 mile round trip to southern Utah and got 2.54 miles per kWh overall, where most e-tron owners are reporting 2.2-2.4.

In general I would say I get about the EPA rating, but I'm able to get it at full freeway speeds of 70-80mph rather than the 60mph or whatever they say the rating is at.
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      04-23-2022, 10:27 AM   #106
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Not sure where you are in Arizona but at highway speeds you may also see improvements due to lower density atmosphere.

In Utah we are at about 5000 feet. This means the atmosphere is about 14% less dense than at sea level. Bad for ICE cars, they make less power. But good for EVs fighting air resistance. It does seem to make a small but measurable difference.

When comparing notes on the e-tron forums I often have some of the best range numbers. For an EPA rated 222 mile car, once I went over 220 miles on a single charge and had 20 miles left on the meter. Last summer we did a 600 mile round trip to southern Utah and got 2.54 miles per kWh overall, where most e-tron owners are reporting 2.2-2.4.

In general I would say I get about the EPA rating, but I'm able to get it at full freeway speeds of 70-80mph rather than the 60mph or whatever they say the rating is at.
Phoenix area. I used to be able to get 300 miles out of my 265 mile range Model S on occasion.
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      04-23-2022, 08:57 PM   #107
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This is what I saw this morning after a full nights charge. Garage temp 66F, outside temp 35F. Photo taken several blocks from the house
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      04-24-2022, 09:52 AM   #108
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This is what I saw this morning after a full nights charge. Garage temp 66F, outside temp 35F. Photo taken several blocks from the house
72% of predicted maximum - which is not bad considering temp and charging limit of 80%. First time I really looked at the dash though - what's up with the 140 mph limit? And the 140 mi on the center range graphic means....?

Last edited by Paladin1; 04-24-2022 at 09:59 AM..
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      04-24-2022, 10:59 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin1 View Post
72% of predicted maximum - which is not bad considering temp and charging limit of 80%. First time I really looked at the dash though - what's up with the 140 mph limit? And the 140 mi on the center range graphic means....?
The centre graphic show minimum range, predicted range and highest possible range if driven very efficiently.
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      04-24-2022, 11:34 AM   #110
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what's up with the 140 mph limit?
Top speed on the 2022 iX xDrive50 is ~125mph. No need to go past 140mph on the speedometer.
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