[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

how dare you not suffer the inconveniences above for the sake of the polar bears and the best fastest coolest techiest vehicle in the world
I am one of the few people in the UK who works next to a costco. Premium fuel is good. As I drive away after the 2 weekly food shop I fill up takes me 3 minutes and gives me over 500 miles in my X5 30d's.
My wife is so busy at work and so disorganised she doesn't even look at the fuel indicator so EV charging and her will be a disaster.
Worst of all when I'm at work and get a call saying my relative who lives 400 miles away is unwell I don't want to say give me a few hours while I charge my car. I want to be able to jump in and drive whenever same of on friday evening kids and mrs say let's go somewhere I want to be able to jump in the car and drive while she makes reservations etc without charging or planning supercharger routes etc.
So in summary EVs are more inconvenient for most folk than most EV supporters will ever admit. For some it will be not for me and many like me.

In the US you can drive 1,000 miles in a day if you want to and still not get anywhere. I can see Europe more easily adopt EV, but in the US, ICE as a single vehicle household transportation device, just works better. Living in a large US city, I wouldn't own a car; its a complete PIA especially when most cities have excellent public transportation.

[FreeDarko]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Honest answer... would you own the Tesla's IF you didn't have an ICE as well?

Actually that's exactly what has happened since we moved to rural.

M2 comp is gone. Wife's Ice we got rid of half way thru covid. The other 2 Ice vehicles are at my parents property which is an hour away.

Basically for the past 4 mths its just been the Tesla.

Going forward only ICE vehicles I'm buying are sports cars, pickups and RVs now that I've realized it's totally doable and the cost savings & convenience factors are significant apples to apples.

But I also understand vehicles such as ultra luxury or large SUVs for cross country road trips, I would still gravitate towards ICE options as EVs don't offer anything in those categories yet.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by FreeDarko

Actually that's exactly what has happened since we moved to rural.

M2 comp is gone. Wife's Ice we got rid of half way thru covid. The other 2 Ice vehicles are at my parents property which is an hour away.

Basically for the past 4 mths its just been the Tesla.

Going forward only ICE vehicles I'm buying are sports cars, pickups and RVs now that I've realized it's totally doable and the cost savings & convenience factors are significant apples to apples.

But I also understand vehicles such as ultra luxury or large SUVs for cross country road trips, I would still gravitate towards ICE options as EVs don't offer anything in those categories yet.

Thanks for the update. You can't argue with someone who puts their money where their mouth is. I couldn't operate my life as it currently works with just EV, but I'm an outlier as far as the use case goes. When I retire mid-decade I could see paring down to one (1) EV and one (1) ICE, but even then not pure EV. I just don't see EV getting near the recharge rate of ICE in the same convenience level at the current price that ICE enjoys; I just don't think the physics and chemistry will allow it at a competitive price. The expansion of technology still has limits based on the laws of science.

I've been living rural for 20 years now, the pandemic has brought a lot of city folks out of the woodwork... sadly.

[Fly320s]

I'll throw in my thoughts about filling up ICE vs EVs. I own two ICE cars and one Tesla 3.

ICE fill-up pluses:
- gas stations everywhere. Convenience
- the fill-up is quick
- full service fill-up if I want
- I don't worry about running out of fuel because gas is everywhere
- Usually a store attached so I can get snacks, use bathroom, etc.

ICE negatives:
- Can be messy, smelly
- Have to take the time to stop and do it
- Cost fluctuates and is higher than EV
- May have to go out of my way to refuel
- May be lines/delays to refuel
- May be bad weather to deal with
- May be limited hours or in a bad area

EV recharging pluses:
- At home convenience. I pull into my garage, plug it in and forget about it.
- No mess, no smells
- No lines/waiting when I charge at home
- Some locations offer free charging
- Some locations offer better/closing parking with chargers
- Lower cost to refill
- Don't have to go inside to prepay or swipe a credit card

EV charging negatives:
- Slow. My home charger takes 4 hours to recharge to 80% after my day of
driving.
- Few charging stations compared to gas stations
- Fast chargers are off my normal route
- Upfront costs are higher. Have to buy your own charger
- Chargers fail more often than gas pumps (my experience)
- I don't know that the car is actually refilled until a long time has passed
- Different chargers require different apps to work
- No charger takes cash payment
- Most drivers don't move their cars after they are charged (airport parking
lots)
- Weather is a bigger factor because most chargers are uncovered
- Have to plan my day/route to make sure I have enough charge

I've had the Tesla for two years. Keeping it charged is a concern, but it is the same concern as keeping gas in my other cars. Time, effort, convenience, and cost are variables for both cars. The physical act of charging the car doesn't bother me at all. I actually prefer it to refilling with gas mainly because I do most of my charging at home.

My biggest concern with EV charging is the actual range of the car. In winter, the Tesla takes a 20% penalty to its range. That is a big penalty. Also, the car uses battery charge while parked. In winter, that battery usage increases, which further reduces range. No ICE vehicle has those penalties.

[FreeDarko]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Thanks for the update. You can't argue with someone who puts their money where their mouth is. I couldn't operate my life as it currently works with just EV, but I'm an outlier as far as the use case goes. When I retire mid-decade I could see paring down to one (1) EV and one (1) ICE, but even then not pure EV. I just don't see EV getting near the recharge rate of ICE in the same convenience level at the current price that ICE enjoys; I just don't think the physics and chemistry will allow it at a competitive price. The expansion of technology still has limits based on the laws of science.

I've been living rural for 20 years now, the pandemic has brought a lot of city folks out of the woodwork... sadly.

As new resident to the rural community I totally understand the hostile feelings emitted by long time dwellers. Kind of like how many Texans feel with the huge migration of Californians to their State and rightfully so.

This was a huge concern of ours as we read a lot of stories online and from few others who took similar steps during covid.

Thankfully our neighbours have embraced us with open arms. Feel it's just Gods grace as it would have been a disaster to move so far away and not feel welcomed. Especially with 2 little kids.

Also I do think it's prudent to have 1 ice and 1 ev after seeing what took place in Texas. You never know what the cost of electricity will be for the short term in certain parts of the States during this current frantic push to renewable energy sources.

However for home owners a lot the concerns can be mitigated thru use of solar power and similar products as the Power Wall. Again this is not for everyone as the initial investments are substantial hence why I hope governments won't push this great reset on people before it becomes feasible option for many.

We were lucky and got our hands on Starlink as a beta user so for us Tesla has been a game changer in many facets. My first month in rural was excruciating when it came to dealing with the telecom companies here and trying to work remotely.

I would love to give my money to other innovators but so far it's been haphazard effort by many manufacturers. Hopefully though more will come to the forefront and give people the options we desperately need.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by FreeDarko

for home owners a lot the concerns can be mitigated thru use of solar power and similar products as the Power Wall.

Originally Posted by Fly320s

I'll throw in my thoughts about filling up ICE vs EVs. I own two ICE cars and one Tesla 3.

This is a great summary, however my 2⊄ is the entire convenience conversation is moot:

(1.) Wireless charging will start rolling out this year - the upgrade to most existing EVs will be in the $1k-$2k range to start, most shopping centers and parking lots will have it in 5 years & EVs will be offered with it standard.

(2.) Gas (petrol) stations will be suddenly and drastically hit financially as EV sales scale up, i.e., exponential business failure. As gas gets to be more of a pain to get (AND less retail gas is sold!) that'll drive more EV sales and repeat - gas stations will wink out like malls have.

(3.) Solid state batteries, i.e., VW/quantumscape, will be here in ~5 years and cheaper, higher energy density batteries are rolling out now

This last part is key: batteries are the new hotness suddenly attracting the smartest people on the planet and BILLIONS in R&D because the opportunity is clear ... here's why:



• Improve the anode and get faster charging times
• Improve the cathode and get a cheaper, higher range battery

On the anode side, there's some low-hanging fruit:

‣ Silicon. Most anodes are made of cheap graphite which determines how fast the battery can charge - so Porsche, for example, is using a synthetic graphite mixed with silicon to get faster charging. Tesla also uses silicon. Silicon get you to 80% in ~15-20 min in the latest formulations.

And then some farming:

‣ Solid state lithium-metal battery. Both VW (Quantumscape) & Tesla are working on this. Solid state allows you to theoretically DOUBLE the battery energy density (cathodes on the x-axis):



To be fair, solid state has been attempted for decades, but failed ... that said, the market for batteries is now orders of magnitude greater than it ever has been and I have no doubt if Quantumscape & Tesla *hasn't* solved it (both claim they have w/ demos), someone else quickly will. There are at least 50 battery startups within 30 miles of me.

Back to cathodes, the much faster and easier performance / cost improvements are already happening since this is where 40% of the cost is:

• Make the batteries modular:
Tesla and VW are both working on this (Tesla will get it out in the next yearish) which makes the battery cheaper, lighter, and customizable to each model (including costs, cooling, etc)



• Get rid of battery "packaging":
currently cells -> modules -> pack, new cells -> pack. Saves weight & cost.

• Cathode chemistry:
Most auto batteries are nickel-manganese-cobalt (Tesla uses nickel-aluminum-cobalt). Cobalt is really expensive, then nickel, and down the line manganese and aluminum. Firstly, you can adjust the nickel & cobalt for different effects in performance, range, & cost. E.g., Porsche & Tesla use lots of nickel for high performance vehicles.

Secondly, VW, Tesla, and others are working on a cathode made from cheap materials: iron & phosphorus. ~50% cost reduction, increased cycles, easily reused/recycled, but also a ~10% decrease range/performance decrease ... so you have to make that up elsewhere.


And all of this is simple summary of the MASSIVE research going into both sides of the batteries.

In short, 2020s gas (petrol) stations will be the malls of the 2010s.

Cell phones used to be inconvenient too

[Bongoxxx]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

(2.) Gas (petrol) stations will be suddenly and drastically hit financially as EV sales scale up, i.e., exponential business failure. As gas gets to be more of a pain to get (AND less retail gas is sold!) that'll drive more EV sales and repeat - gas stations will wink out like malls have.


In short, 2020s gas (petrol) stations will be the malls of the 2010s.

Great analysis, but one assumption is that gas stations will sit back and be like Blockbuster...

My thought is the “smart” stations will convert and offer charging and petrol, then eventually go full electric.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Bongoxxx

Great analysis, but one assumption is that gas stations will sit back and be like Blockbuster...

My thought is the “smart” stations will convert and offer charging and petrol, then eventually go full electric.

Definitely, however major retailers, grocery stores, strip malls, etc installing wireless charging will seriously impact most gas station locations ...

The business model depends on a small real estate footprint, usually near other places you're going like ... strip malls and retail but you also NEED gas! Further, the business model needs you to run in for milk, snacks, et al ... and it needs that at scale & high frequency and further, the gasoline refining & distribution business requires high scale, i.e., running lots of volume through a major metro ...

So the gas station financial crunch simultaneously hits them on both sides, demand AND supply:

* If consumers can wireless charge at the mall, why drive over to the gas station?

* Even if you do, for a quick trip, the gas station has a small real estate footprint, so it can only accommodate so many vehicles ... why not just park at the grocery store since you need snacks anyway? The only reason you combined errands was for the gas ... which you don't need anymore.

* And, You don't really need to charge anyway since you do it at home and Amazon, ubereats, and new autonomous delivery services are running most of your errands for you ... quick stops now = quick delivery

* With gas station visits down, gas stations start selling less gas AND less retail .. they have no choice but to raise prices on everything, that further pushes consumers away.

* As their gas sales go down, prices go up if only due to delivery costs as distributor stops diminish

* As gas stations start to close, convenience falls which reinforces the cycle.

And we could say, "well only for cities & suburbs though" except the supply side hits them the worst: rural gas will get really expensive! And, given their land, many will start to find solar a WAY cheaper and more convenient long-term solution ... and not just individuals, but communities - as in a rural area forms a solar / wind collective. Community solar has 100 startups ...


Gas stations are basically malls, or landline services, or cable companies, except x10: In those cases it's only demand that was killed ... in the case of energy it's both demand and supply that gets hammered and happens fast.

there's an old joke:

Q: How did you go bankrupt?
A: Slowly at first, and then all at once.

That's gonna be gas stations and anyone planning on selling an ICE vehicle.

[bayarea328xit]

Looks like 2% of the light-duty vehicles sold in 2019 were pure electric (not plug-in nor hybrids) - see link. Is this 2019 estimate correct? Do we know this number for 2020?

By when do we estimate this number will hit 10%? 25%? 50%?

I can see gas stations running into problems once this number hits 20-25% in a region (e.g., bay area).

Gas stations have learned to survive as cars have become more fuel efficient - see link.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by bayarea328xit

Gas stations have learned to survive as cars have become more fuel efficient - see link.

that's a great point, though I'd say needing somewhat less gas and not needing gas at all is a pretty wide canyon ... and like I said, it'll happen slowly until it happens all at once.

It's why so many businesses get caught off guard with anything exponential:

plenty of time until one day their business is shrinking 5% / month which gives them about 12 months (or less) before they're dead ... but for the first few years the loss seems so minimal "let's not panic".

And on the gas supply side, it won't be linear: at a certain point, it won't pay to be oil cracking and a whole refinery will shut down and that'll shock through the system ... and before that gas delivery will have the same problem; at a certain point stations will have to start paying extra delivery charges. Big outposts will survive, but the locals probably can't survive even if they have superchargers - maybe they'll see to Electrify America and similar ...

The thing is, the charger networks will already be up - so unless a gas station starts converting NOW they might be stuck with property not high volume enough for gas or charging.

[EME_Bounce]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Definitely, however major retailers, grocery stores, strip malls, etc installing wireless charging will seriously impact most gas station locations ...

The business model depends on a small real estate footprint, usually near other places you're going like ... strip malls and retail but you also NEED gas! Further, the business model needs you to run in for milk, snacks, et al ... and it needs that at scale & high frequency and further, the gasoline refining & distribution business requires high scale, i.e., running lots of volume through a major metro ...

So the gas station financial crunch simultaneously hits them on both sides, demand AND supply:

* If consumers can wireless charge at the mall, why drive over to the gas station?

* Even if you do, for a quick trip, the gas station has a small real estate footprint, so it can only accommodate so many vehicles ... why not just park at the grocery store since you need snacks anyway? The only reason you combined errands was for the gas ... which you don't need anymore.

* And, You don't really need to charge anyway since you do it at home and Amazon, ubereats, and new autonomous delivery services are running most of your errands for you ... quick stops now = quick delivery

* With gas station visits down, gas stations start selling less gas AND less retail .. they have no choice but to raise prices on everything, that further pushes consumers away.

* As their gas sales go down, prices go up if only due to delivery costs as distributor stops diminish

* As gas stations start to close, convenience falls which reinforces the cycle.

And we could say, "well only for cities & suburbs though" except the supply side hits them the worst: rural gas will get really expensive! And, given their land, many will start to find solar a WAY cheaper and more convenient long-term solution ... and not just individuals, but communities - as in a rural area forms a solar / wind collective. Community solar has 100 startups ...


Gas stations are basically malls, or landline services, or cable companies, except x10: In those cases it's only demand that was killed ... in the case of energy it's both demand and supply that gets hammered and happens fast.

there's an old joke:

Q: How did you go bankrupt?
A: Slowly at first, and then all at once.

That's gonna be gas stations and anyone planning on selling an ICE vehicle.

This makes the gross assumption that battery-energy storage vehicles are the answer. While humanity sometimes chooses the right technologies based on facts and logic, often that is not the case. Emotion, marketing and following the flock often take precedence. (think: fashion trends, pop music trends that are found to be awful years later, Nickleback)

The energy density of batteries has grown in recent years, but many people cannot comprehend the amount of energy needed and transfer rates necessary to achieve vehicle propulsion.

Ye-olden Ni-Cd batteries had an energy density of around 50Wh/kg. Current technology has this peaking around 265Wh/kg. While a 5.3x increase is tremendous, you need a log scale to touch the achievable output (not theoretical energy density of the fuel) of a hydrogen fuel cell at 33,600Wh/kg. For those keeping track at home, the achievable energy density output from a Hydrogen FCEV is 126.8 times as dense.

We have most of the infrastructure ready for hydrogen already. Will humanity choose it? Probably not. We're stupid creatures. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

[David70]

Originally Posted by EME_Bounce

This makes the gross assumption that battery-energy storage vehicles are the answer. While humanity sometimes chooses the right technologies based on facts and logic, often that is not the case. Emotion, marketing and following the flock often take precedence. (think: fashion trends, pop music trends that are found to be awful years later, Nickleback)

The energy density of batteries has grown in recent years, but many people cannot comprehend the amount of energy needed and transfer rates necessary to achieve vehicle propulsion.

Ye-olden Ni-Cd batteries had an energy density of around 50Wh/kg. Current technology has this peaking around 265Wh/kg. While a 5.3x increase is tremendous, you need a log scale to touch the achievable output (not theoretical energy density of the fuel) of a hydrogen fuel cell at 33,600Wh/kg. For those keeping track at home, the achievable energy density output from a Hydrogen FCEV is 126.8 times as dense.

We have most of the infrastructure ready for hydrogen already. Will humanity choose it? Probably not. We're stupid creatures. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Hydrogen works well for fleets but for consumer use I don't see it. How is the "most of the infrastructure ready for hydrogen already"? I won't buy a hydrogen car until there is a place near my house to fuel it and nobody will build a place to refuel it until there is a market to refuel? CA is putting in stations as the government is paying for it, then once this happens you will buy a car that is completely unable to leave the state? Compare the costs of the hydrogen station to the EV charger and they are massively worse for the hydrogen station. I can buy and charge an EV at my house, today, virtually never go to a station and worst case is I can drive any of them wherever I want, even if not very convenient to recharge (at least is possible). Add in the likely irrational fear of the hydrogen tank in the car and it looks worse.

I guess this makes me one of the stupid ones but I don't see a logical path for making it readily available/usable for the masses. Especially compared to the EV/hybrid's.

[KRS_SN]

The thing is, the charger networks will already be up - so unless a gas station starts converting NOW they might be stuck with property not high volume enough for gas or charging.
GrussGott
most people charge at home while most people refuel at petrol stations.
Would petrol stations be profitable if they allocated spaces for chargers.
they would be turkeys voting for Christmas if they allocated spacrs for chargers instead of fuel pumps.

[EME_Bounce]

Originally Posted by David70

Hydrogen works well for fleets but for consumer use I don't see it. How is the "most of the infrastructure ready for hydrogen already"? I won't buy a hydrogen car until there is a place near my house to fuel it and nobody will build a place to refuel it until there is a market to refuel? CA is putting in stations as the government is paying for it, then once this happens you will buy a car that is completely unable to leave the state? Compare the costs of the hydrogen station to the EV charger and they are massively worse for the hydrogen station. I can buy and charge an EV at my house, today, virtually never go to a station and worst case is I can drive any of them wherever I want, even if not very convenient to recharge (at least is possible). Add in the likely irrational fear of the hydrogen tank in the car and it looks worse.

I guess this makes me one of the stupid ones but I don't see a logical path for making it readily available/usable for the masses. Especially compared to the EV/hybrid's.

Like I said, humanity will likely not choose the correct technical solution. All I hear is excuses and "fear" from non-engineers.

Infrastructure: Fueling stations with a tank/pump retrofit. Refuel in 2.5 minutes, high turnover & customer exposure. Far cheaper than a multi-megawatt service for charging 10 vehicles an hour. Giant parking lots will be needed to house all the vehicles charging if BEV's go mainstream. Right now they're next to zero.

Here's a presentation I contributed to as a young engineer in 2005:

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs...1_satyapal.pdf

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-storage

Note the material storage. I discovered a number of those compounds for safe storage.

Most modern homes also only have on average single phase, 200 amp service.

Again, most folks can't comprehend how little energy 200 amp service for energy transfer really is.

[David70]

None of the gas stations near where I live have the space to set up an EV charging station for medium term parking. If they have the space, someone has to prove the business model for how this will be profitable to them. If there really is a profitable business, please explain it it me as there is plenty of parking at strip malls, malls, Costco, etc where I think I could convince the businesses there to lease some parking spaces at minimal cost and with me explaining these potential customers will be stuck with nothing to do and in their parking lot. I think most consumers would prefer to park at the mall than a crowded gas station. I would set up a charging station if the numbers worked, just don't think they do right now, same reason the gas station owner or mall owner won't do it. Tough sell if you can't show someone how/when they will be profitable. There are some private private networks starting but I think it is tough sell to the gas station owner.

If Tesla found it was a profitable business they should franchise it out, basically a kit with a fee associated. The correct kit would only need me to buy it, find the land and pay to hook it up. Nothing close to the gas/hydrogen station problem.

[David70]

Originally Posted by EME_Bounce

Like I said, humanity will likely not choose the correct technical solution. All I hear is excuses and "fear" from non-engineers.

Infrastructure: Fueling stations with a tank/pump retrofit. Refuel in 2.5 minutes, high turnover & customer exposure. Far cheaper than a multi-megawatt service for charging 10 vehicles an hour. Giant parking lots will be needed to house all the vehicles charging if BEV's go mainstream. Right now they're next to zero.

Here's a presentation I contributed to as a young engineer in 2005:

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs...1_satyapal.pdf

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-storage

Note the material storage. I discovered a number of those compounds for safe storage.

Most modern homes also only have on average single phase, 200 amp service.

Again, most folks can't comprehend how little energy 200 amp service for energy transfer really is.

Your presentation is 29 pages long, anything you specifically want to highlight?

Fueling stations with a retrofit - you make this sound simple but it isn't as you need all new tanks, piping and pumps. At the gas station, where are you putting the new tanks and pumps and why would a gas station install them unless he has potential customers ready to use it?

I agree the engineering side has it viable but you haven't addressed the commercial side. How will I or anyone else ever buy a hydrogen car when there isn't a place to refuel it and why would a station owner have a hydrogen refueling station when no one has a hydrogen car (city buses are a different story)? The EV market is increasing rabidly, mostly with people charging at home, some part of these people will also want to charge away from home, as the market grows the need for charging station will also. Get enough charging stations, charge them quick enough and the whole system has a chance of working.

[EME_Bounce]

Originally Posted by David70

Your presentation is 29 pages long, anything you specifically want to highlight?

Fueling stations with a retrofit - you make this sound simple but it isn't as you need all new tanks and pumps. At the gas station, where are you putting the new tanks and pumps and why would a gas station install them unless he has potential customers ready to use it?

I agree it is the engineering side has it viable but you haven't addressed the commercial side. How will I or anyone else ever buy a hydrogen car when there isn't a place to refuel it and why would a station owner have a hydrogen refueling station when no one has a hydrogen car (city buses are a different story)? The EV market is increasing rabidly, mostly with people charging at home, some part of these people will also want to charge away from home, as the market grows the need for charging station will also. Get enough charging stations, charge them quick enough and the whole system has a chance of working.

The paper was 290 pages, would you prefer that?

[EME_Bounce]

Originally Posted by David70

Your presentation is 29 pages long, anything you specifically want to highlight?

Fueling stations with a retrofit - you make this sound simple but it isn't as you need all new tanks and pumps. At the gas station, where are you putting the new tanks and pumps and why would a gas station install them unless he has potential customers ready to use it?

I agree it is the engineering side has it viable but you haven't addressed the commercial side. How will I or anyone else ever buy a hydrogen car when there isn't a place to refuel it and why would a station owner have a hydrogen refueling station when no one has a hydrogen car (city buses are a different story)? The EV market is increasing rabidly, mostly with people charging at home, some part of these people will also want to charge away from home, as the market grows the need for charging station will also. Get enough charging stations, charge them quick enough and the whole system has a chance of working.

I learned something a long time ago about the mentality of an engineer vs other people. Engineers find ways to make things possible while everyone else is making excuses.

For example: a normal person would say "the battery density is too low to make an EV possible". Meanwhile Elon's engineers found a solution. They knew that battery energy density is garbage and almost always will be compared to other storage mechanisms (fuels). Instead they found a way to greatly reduce the amount of energy required to move the vehicle. Props to Elon for this! We now have ways to move vehicles with far less energy than previous.

We can take that technology one step further and now instead of 500 Kg of batteries, we can have 50 Kg of fuel cells. (think civil aviation as well)

Anyhow, try to think outside of the box instead of making excuses for other outcomes based on personal bias.

And yes, I own a PHEV BMW but not for reasons most would think.

[bayarea328xit]

I am not sure if wireless charging will catch on - at best, there is a 10-15% loss due to coupling inefficiencies. Given that the pad has to charge many different vehicles (e.g., different ride heights for SUVs vs passenger cars; different vehicle geometries, etc.) and the parking mis-alignment errors (not many people will pull out of the parking slot to realign better), we are talking about even larger losses in practice.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by EME_Bounce

I learned something a long time ago about the mentality of an engineer vs other people. Engineers find ways to make things possible while everyone else is making excuses.

For example: a normal person would say "the battery density is too low to make an EV possible". Meanwhile Elon's engineers found a solution. They knew that battery energy density is garbage and almost always will be compared to other storage mechanisms (fuels). Instead they found a way to greatly reduce the amount of energy required to move the vehicle. Props to Elon for this! We now have ways to move vehicles with far less energy than previous.

We can take that technology one step further and now instead of 500 Kg of batteries, we can have 50 Kg of fuel cells. (think civil aviation as well)

Anyhow, try to think outside of the box instead of making excuses for other outcomes based on personal bias.

And yes, I own a PHEV BMW but not for reasons most would think.

I'm a former manufacturing engineer, now manage the business of engineering and implementing new technology. Yes, engineers figure out problems to make things possible, but there are the natural laws of physics and chemistry and most importantly, budgets.

[GrussGott]

You gotta wonder what kind of data they're seeing to get this desperate

https://twitter.com/CNBCnow/status/1...083570189?s=20

[GrussGott]

In a related story ... er, stories, EV MFRs better figure this shit out fast or it's gonna cost sales, possibly a corporate-level amount of them ...

Already cost BMW a 45e sale to me:

✘ Don’t park your Hyundai Kona EV inside because it could catch fire
Hyundai is recalling more than 80,000 EVs over battery fire concerns

✘ GM recalls 68,000 electric Chevy Bolts over battery fire concerns
There have been at least five incidents of Bolt batteries catching fire

✘ LG Chem hit by GM recall of Bolt electric vehicles
Shares in world’s largest EV battery maker fall 4% on reliability concerns