[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I'm saying your point is silly. The i3 is sufficiently large for all my needs as a 4 seater (which aren't insignificant, since I'm 6'4) and has way more than enough range for all my DD needs. Size/weight/range in excess of what I need is a downgrade, not an upgrade (as it comes at the expense of weight). A cheaper (heavier) manufacturing process and increased range through a larger (heavier) battery will result in me wanting a future i3 less.

This may not be true for you, but your beliefs are not representative of 100% of the population. That's why I disagreed with your original statement ("The only things that matter with EVs are the range and recovery time.") I value driving dynamics above most else, and a reasonably safe, functional 4 seater, that weighs ~2800 lbs and has instant accelerator response was what drew me to the i3 in the first place. I think it's unreasonable to expect to take any EV on a road trip any time soon, and I'm not willing to make my experience worse the other 99% of the time for that edge case.

I was talking about the EV market in general, not about you. On an individual basis, every car can have a satisfied owner. The take up rate for the i3 in the US market is very low, which is why it is heavily discounted. The i3 EV is too expensive and is range limited and takes too long to recharge for the max range it provides. The sale numbers speak for themselves. Glad you like your i3, but as far as most everyone else in the market, generally, they don't, regardless if it is lightweight and has a CF shell. 90% of the market doesn't care about weight not driving dynamics.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I was talking about the EV market in general, not about you. On an individual basis, every car can have a satisfied owner. The take up rate for the i3 in the US market is very low, which is why it is heavily discounted. The i3 EV is too expensive and is range limited and takes too long to recharge for the max range it provides. The sale numbers speak for themselves. Glad you like your i3, but as far as most everyone else in the market, generally, they don't, regardless if it is lightweight and has a CF shell.

It’s doing well enough in Europe.

In the US, cars in general aren’t doing well and hatches/wagons have never done well. E.g. ford and Chevy are discontinuing almost their entire line of cars, the 3 and 5 series wagons are dead, etc.

If it’s not a suv/truck/crossover, Americans aren’t that interested (generally).

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That's good for you. For most of the US automotive market, where the need to take road trips of 300 miles/day are common, buyers have range anxiety.

For 350+ days a year, the >120 mi range of the i3 is fine and the REx eliminates range anxiety in LA city driving altogether. The i3 uses a different battery technology from the Bolt altogether and was chosen for a specific reason that goes above my head. As a secondary commuter it's very good. The Bolt is not something I want to sit in for my commute since last I checked didn't have adaptive cruise.

[/QUOTE]

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Obioban

It’s doing well enough in Europe.

In the US, cars in general aren’t doing well and hatches/wagons have never done well. E.g. ford and Chevy are discontinuing almost their entire line of cars, the 3 and 5 series wagons are dead, etc.

If it’s not a suv/truck/crossover, Americans aren’t that interested (generally).

Hence why the Bolt was released as a CUV.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Hence why the Bolt was released as a CUV.

Ah, yes, the worst form of car.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Ah, yes, the worst form of car.

True, but they are in favor with the market it this point.

If a company (cough cough GM) sold a 250-mile EV in sedan form that looked normal inside and out for $40K I'd buy it.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

True, but they are in favor with the market it this point.

If a company (cough cough GM) sold a 250-mile EV in sedan form that looked normal inside and out for $40K I'd buy it.

Honestly, I'd prefer a hatchback for an EV, which is one reason I chose the i3.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If a company (cough cough GM) sold a 250-mile EV in sedan form that looked normal inside and out for $40K I'd buy it.

If any company sold EVs that handled and accelerated well, and had adequate room for four to five (4-5) adults, I would buy it.
Wait, they did, and I did, and it was a Tesla.

The only only reason i3 sells (as poorly as it does) in the US are the stupendous BMW NA lease residual subsidies. It's a the cheapest EV to least in the US, period, and it's good enough for commuter duty.
To the extend that the incentives are present in other countries, i3 sells. Except that we are spoiled for EV choices in the US, as Tesla's and Bolts are in abundance here, in short supply in Canada, and barely available (or not at all) outside of NA.

Bolt could have been a contender, but its implementation bears the scars of GM parts bin foraging: from toilet-ring front seat comfort, to hard plastic-fantastic interior, to recycled econobox platform looks, it's lacking in all the important details. Chevy brand name is equally a burden, especially for a $40+K vehicle.
Last, but not the least, is lack of a access to a country-wide L2/L3 charging infrastructure.

Tesla is the only company that recognized the last challenge, and did something about it. Unfortunately for other automakers, Tesla went with a custom plug that is not cross compatible with the rest of the EV market. Fortunately for Tesla, "the rest" is now less than 50% of EV sales.
No other automaker has dared to tackle the charging infrastructure ubiquity challenge, to date.
No other automaker has dared to tackle the battery supply chain constraints either.

For a cheap commuter EV - a leased i3 value proposition is hard to beat.
For nearly an all-purpose sedan, including mid-/long-distance trips, Tesla is the ONLY viable choice at this time.
It does not hurt that it rules all other comparison categories (performance, handling, technology galore, brand coolness, etc) as well.

Bolt is stuck in no-man's land.
So are most of the other EV offerings.

a

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by afadeev

If any company sold EVs that handled and accelerated well, and had adequate room for four to five (4-5) adults, I would buy it.
Wait, they did, and I did, and it was a Tesla.

The only only reason i3 sells (as poorly as it does) in the US are the stupendous BMW NA lease residual subsidies. It's a the cheapest EV to least in the US, period, and it's good enough for commuter duty.
To the extend that the incentives are present in other countries, i3 sells. Except that we are spoiled for EV choices in the US, as Tesla's and Bolts are in abundance here, in short supply in Canada, and barely available (or not at all) outside of NA.

Bolt could have been a contender, but its implementation bears the scars of GM parts bin foraging: from toilet-ring front seat comfort, to hard plastic-fantastic interior, to recycled econobox platform looks, it's lacking in all the important details. Chevy brand name is equally a burden, especially for a $40+K vehicle.
Last, but not the least, is lack of a access to a country-wide L2/L3 charging infrastructure.

Tesla is the only company that recognized the last challenge, and did something about it. Unfortunately for other automakers, Tesla went with a custom plug that is not cross compatible with the rest of the EV market. Fortunately for Tesla, "the rest" is now less than 50% of EV sales.
No other automaker has dared to tackle the charging infrastructure ubiquity challenge, to date.
No other automaker has dared to tackle the battery supply chain constraints either.

For a cheap commuter EV - a leased i3 value proposition is hard to beat.
For nearly an all-purpose sedan, including mid-/long-distance trips, Tesla is the ONLY viable choice at this time.
It does not hurt that it rules all other comparison categories (performance, handling, technology galore, brand coolness, etc) as well.

Bolt is stuck in no-man's land.
So are most of the other EV offerings.

a

Great and all, but at this time, the Model S costs $80,000 in cheap trim. The average transaction price for an automobile in the US is around $35K. The Model 3 doesn't even compete economically with those numbers in total ownership costs. The back seat of the Model 3 is a joke. And the tablet screen is a cost-cutting design pure and simple.

Well, the Bolt as a "contender" compared to the i3, the bolt has a 31,730 sales unit lead since December 2016 when it was introduced. The Bolt has a 7,780 sales lead with all sales months counted, with the i3 having a 32-month lead (June 2014). Both cars are CUVs. People desire range over beauty apparently.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Great and all, but at this time, the Model S costs $80,000 in cheap trim. The average transaction price for an automobile in the US is around $35K.

OK, so what?
7-series starts at $80K and quickly crosses $150K.
5-series starts at $50K and quickly crosses $110K.
3-series starts at $40K and can hit $100K.

Luxury cars cost more.
What else is new?

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Model 3 doesn't even compete economically with those numbers in total ownership costs. The back seat of the Model 3 is a joke. And the tablet screen is a cost-cutting design pure and simple.

Sorry, it's your comments that are a joke.

You don't own a Model 3, and are talking out of your tailpipe.
The rear seats in Model 3 are more comfortable and spacious than those in my F80. Full stop.

Tesla's central touch-screen UI is a intuitive, well laid out, and a fantastic improvement on BMW's multitude of buttons, tiny screens, and iDrive radio button.

The only other guy I know who complains so much about touch screens is an old-timer at a bar insists flip phones are making a come back, and iPhone's are a fad.

Any chance you two are related ?

a

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by afadeev

OK, so what?
7-series starts at $80K and quickly crosses $150K.
5-series starts at $50K and quickly crosses $110K.
3-series starts at $40K and can hit $100K.

Luxury cars cost more.
What else is new?




Sorry, it's your comments that are a joke.

You don't own a Model 3, and are talking out of your tailpipe.
The rear seats in Model 3 are more comfortable and spacious than those in my F80. Full stop.

Tesla's central touch-screen UI is a intuitive, well laid out, and a fantastic improvement on BMW's multitude of buttons, tiny screens, and iDrive radio button.

The only other guy I know who complains so much about touch screens is an old-timer at a bar insists flip phones are making a come back, and iPhone's are a fad.

Any chance you two are related ?

a

Interesting how you move to insults now; I'm obviously making good points. Just relax, we're having an adult discussion.

A colleague at work has a Model 3, and I rode back with him from a meeting down town. In February, I sat in the back right seat of his car for 45 minutes, it was miserable. The floor is too high in relationship to the seat cushion, and the seatback rake is wrong, which places ones muscles in an odd, strenuous position. Honest magazine reviews of the Model 3 say this as well. That experience, along with the gauge treatment, has turned me off to the car. Audi, in any of its current cars, offers as much or more information in a far better, driver focused, gauge layout. But it's expensive to engineer and produce such gear for automobiles. Tesla should be commended for what it is attempting to do with both the S and Model 3. It is attempting to compete with a product that needs new manufacturing infrastructure and engineering practices invented to produce it against well-established products from long-standing automotive manufacturers. The shortcomings of the S and Model 3 are obvious results of such an endeavor, but it doesn't mean everyone should like the cars.

Everyone places the Model s and Model 3 in the "luxury" category because of their pricing, not because of their content. The Model s is nowhere near a luxurious as an S-class Benz. The Model 3 was supposed be the mainstream, affordable C-sized sedan that was supposed to be priced at $35,000 and convert the driving public to electric. It's not priced at $35K, so it gets thrown into the 3-series near-lux sedan class.

As a consumer, who is looking for a mid-sized 4-door sedan, at an affordable price, there are at least 10 models from other manufacturers that are far less expensive than the Model 3.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Interesting how you move to insults now; I'm obviously making good points. Just relax, we're having an adult discussion.

You spout BS, mis-represent facts, and have an axe to grind against Tesla.

I don't know why, and frankly don't care.

a