[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

And you do this how often?

I forget who it was (I think it's Mazda?) but one manufacturer is including with the purchase of their EV, up to 10 days / year of loans of an ICE vehicle. Perfect for those once-a-year road trips, instead of the other 354 days where a 200 mile range is MORE than enough.

Really, the "competition" for EV's is most people's worst case scenario imaginations, not reality.

The competition for EV is it's inability to deliver what other technologies already do and that is not just an imaginary tangent, it's as real as real gets

[patrobX5]

Originally Posted by ggalanis

The one I sat in at the dealer was as nice as my very well equipped X5 if not better.

So they are already available at the dealers for a test drive? Because I read somewhere they are arriving beginning of this year

[npa201]

Originally Posted by Hi

Tom Maloughney has done a 70mph range test in a 2020 Model Y LR and got 249 miles (401km) @ 86F (30C).

Bjorn Nyland has done a 120km (75mph) range test in a Model Y LR and got 221 miles (340km) @ 63F (17C). In a Model X LR Raven, he got 250 miles (402km) @ 65F (18C).

Thanks for the numbers. So I just want to make sure I’m interpreting this correctly. While the temperatures and speeds are more favorable in the Tesla tests above, should I interpret that the Tesla if driven more at the speeds as the YouTube video of the IX will still be more efficient than the IX? I think the video said on a cold day with the wind he got about 155 miles on a charge and in more optimal weather he thinks its probably closer to 185. So against the range of 305 miles (as per BMW’s website with those wheels), its 51%-61% of the promised range when driving faster. And that compares to the Tesla stats above for the model Y that look more like 67%-75% of stated range (against the 330 miles)?

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by npa201

While the temperatures and speeds are more favorable in the Tesla tests above, should I interpret that the Tesla if driven more at the speeds as the YouTube video of the IX will still be more efficient than the IX?

No, you cannot make a conclusion with those numbers.
There is a big drop in range going from 70-75mph to 99-100mph speed.

Check out this graph, the iX seems to be comparable to the Model X in range.

[Hutchinson04]

This video confirmed the core issues that I have with an electric vehicle…30 minutes to charge to 80% range…change my driving habits to accommodate longer range…plan my drive around charging stations to accommodate lack of infrastructure support for EV's. Until these issues are fixed, I can't see EV's expanding the current customer base to the masses.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

The competition for EV is it's inability to deliver what other technologies already do and that is not just an imaginary tangent, it's as real as real gets

How much experience with EV's do you have? I agree with your statement, to a certain extent. But not entirely.

Much of the resistance to EV's is psychological. People are fixated on range and charging times. It's new tech, it does require some thinking and math that they aren't used to. People don't want to be bothered. So they make the same choices because it's easier than learning something new.

Having lived with an EV now for 3 years, I've discovered that the limitations I thought were there are generally not as bad, and discovered others I hadn't thought of. And I can say that a decent range EV is a solid choice for WAY more buyers than currently buy one. Is it 100% as capable as an ICE vehicle? No way. I wouldn't suggest it for people in many circumstances, most of which is the inability to charge at home overnight. If you can, however, and you're not routinely taking longer trips with a tight schedule, an EV can work for you for sure.

[npa201]

Originally Posted by nosnoop

No, you cannot make a conclusion with those numbers.
There is a big drop in range going from 70-75mph to 99-100mph speed.

Check out this graph, the iX seems to be comparable to the Model X in range.

Thanks for the chart. Super helpful! So ultimately my biggest issue on my order currently is the lack of tow option in the US and no winter tire package (so went with smaller 21"). The looks have really grown on me. Its no Taycan S Cross Turismo but its also $40k less when you option it out to be apples to apples. Even compared to a regular Cross turismo, it probably saves $20k+.

[npa201]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

How much experience with EV's do you have? I agree with your statement, to a certain extent. But not entirely.

Much of the resistance to EV's is psychological. People are fixated on range and charging times. It's new tech, it does require some thinking and math that they aren't used to. People don't want to be bothered. So they make the same choices because it's easier than learning something new.

Having lived with an EV now for 3 years, I've discovered that the limitations I thought were there are generally not as bad, and discovered others I hadn't thought of. And I can say that a decent range EV is a solid choice for WAY more buyers than currently buy one. Is it 100% as capable as an ICE vehicle? No way. I wouldn't suggest it for people in many circumstances, most of which is the inability to charge at home overnight. If you can, however, and you're not routinely taking longer trips with a tight schedule, an EV can work for you for sure.

Out of curiosity, are you of the mindset that all the cars in your household can be EV or would you still keep 1 ICE for long trips but EV for daily driving? Just curious.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

How much experience with EV's do you have? I agree with your statement, to a certain extent. But not entirely.

Much of the resistance to EV's is psychological. People are fixated on range and charging times. It's new tech, it does require some thinking and math that they aren't used to. People don't want to be bothered. So they make the same choices because it's easier than learning something new.

Having lived with an EV now for 3 years, I've discovered that the limitations I thought were there are generally not as bad, and discovered others I hadn't thought of. And I can say that a decent range EV is a solid choice for WAY more buyers than currently buy one. Is it 100% as capable as an ICE vehicle? No way. I wouldn't suggest it for people in many circumstances, most of which is the inability to charge at home overnight. If you can, however, and you're not routinely taking longer trips with a tight schedule, an EV can work for you for sure.

Thank you for a mature and informative reply.

My experience is limited to a few test drives though I am seriously looking for my next daily driver and considering the EV in the line up for the first time.

The limitations I have come across so far, which may only be perceived and not factual, are the endurance (gap between charges over a longhaul trip), strength (the ability to tow a fully loaded trailer or caravan), and longevity (lifespan of the car without the need to replace anything major - in ICE that would be the engine, in EV I guess the battery).

Resale value isn't really to do with the mechanics or dynamics of the car itself so I won't mention that.

I'm not anti-EV, I'm pro-utility - if the EV can serve all of my needs, I'm in

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

And you do this how often?

I forget who it was (I think it's Mazda?) but one manufacturer is including with the purchase of their EV, up to 10 days / year of loans of an ICE vehicle. Perfect for those once-a-year road trips, instead of the other 354 days where a 200 mile range is MORE than enough.

Really, the "competition" for EV's is most people's worst case scenario imaginations, not reality.

Depends where do you live. Australia and Canada is not the way you think. There are areas where you must realize that if you do t have enough fuel you are out in heat or cold.
Except you teach kangaroos and grizzly to carry some electric capacitors… just in case.

Anyway, I am not the one that needs that 15 minutes break. Maybe I am in rush and maybe I dont want tostop.
Or maybe, my time is more important for me and I can manage it as I want not as the car wants…
Not to mention, I can not accept the idea of having a vehicle that impose on me a certain routine… like a robot…
I am a free man and a free soul. All I want is a car that can carry few jugs of fuel and some sandwiches.
I think that electric vehicle is about range and getting to the destination while the ICEvehicle is about the experience on random roads and unknownplaces, free and wild…

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by npa201

Out of curiosity, are you of the mindset that all the cars in your household can be EV or would you still keep 1 ICE for long trips but EV for daily driving? Just curious.

That's a quick question without an easy answer. The answer is it depends on where you live, and what a "'long trip" is.

At this moment, I would still keep an ICE for longer trips. Right now, our primary trip car is my wife's Cayenne Diesel, which is a superb long trip car, only let down by the lack of radar cruise. We've driven from Houston to Colorado a half dozen times and also driven to Florida multiple times. I think we've about given up on the Colorado trip thing as our kids are much better about flying now that they are older, although...COVID. So if I limit my trip driving to just Florida....I think I could do it in a long range EV.

BUT

My experience with DCFC (fast charging) is with Tesla, and the Supercharger network works and can be counted upon. The CCS network (EA and such) is, from what I have heard from other EV owners, not as robust. That is the number one reason that gives me pause. Not having to charge. The fear of pulling up to the ONE EA charger in 100 miles and it not working. Once that's no longer a thing, my confidence would be much higher.

Being that I've done some pretty decently long road trips (up to Colorado is nearly 1,200 miles) and I'm an obsessive route planner and we're pretty iron butted when it comes to stopping, I've planned the route in multiple EV's. In anything other than a Tesla, I cannot go to CO through NW Texas Panhandle. I have to go north through Kansas and then West. That adds miles and time. That, plus the charging time, turns a 1.5 dat drive into a 2 day drive, and that sucks.

Going to Florida panhandle is about a 9.5 hour drive with no traffic. In reality, with stops and traffic, it usually takes us about 10:30 to 11. In an EV, with stops, it turns into about an 12 hour drive. So adding an hour, hour and fifteen doesn't seem bad until it takes a 10.5 hour drive to nearly a 12 hour one.

Also, my wife worries more than I do, lol.

I do these trips once a year, MAX. Logic says I should buy an iX, as it should be easy enough for intra-Texas driving even with stops. I've done Houston - Dallas - Houston in a day (450 miles) in the Tesla and also in her Cayenne and the difference is maybe 40 minutes each leg. If not 30. So I could pretty easily get an iX and then just rent a nice SUV to go to FL or Colorado with.

But I suspect I probably won't.

If EA were as reliable as Superchargers, and in about the same amount of locations? I think I would.

Honest answer, hope this helps.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Thank you for a mature and informative reply.

My experience is limited to a few test drives though I am seriously looking for my next daily driver and considering the EV in the line up for the first time.

The limitations I have come across so far, which may only be perceived and not factual, are the endurance (gap between charges over a longhaul trip), strength (the ability to tow a fully loaded trailer or caravan), and longevity (lifespan of the car without the need to replace anything major - in ICE that would be the engine, in EV I guess the battery).

Resale value isn't really to do with the mechanics or dynamics of the car itself so I won't mention that.

I'm not anti-EV, I'm pro-utility - if the EV can serve all of my needs, I'm in

I get it. You live in a completely different place, although your wide open spaces I presume would probably be similar to TX where I live (see post above).

Towing for sure really is not an EV strong suit. Strength wise it's completely fine. However, unless you're going to a lake 15-20 miles away, I'd almost immediately disqualify an EV. The range hit is too much when towing, and charging with a big trailer hooked up is going to be a PITA. Only plan on using an EV to tow if you can afford to not charge with half the advertised range.

Longevity, you're way ahead with an EV. Even if you had to replace the pack, it'd be way down the road. Catastrophic pack failure is likely to happen within the warranty period, and the long term wear is simply diminished range. There are enough test cases with long mileage Teslas to see that this isn't a huge deal.

See my thoughts above on long haul trips. IMO the sweet spot / breaking point where it starts to hurt is any trip that takes more than 3/4 of a day in an ICE. And ironically if your trip already takes close to 2 days or more in an ICE, the EV is back in the game. It's that .75 to 1.5 day trip where the EV kinda gets painful.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Depends where do you live. Australia and Canada is not the way you think. There are areas where you must realize that if you do t have enough fuel you are out in heat or cold.
Except you teach kangaroos and grizzly to carry some electric capacitors… just in case.

Anyway, I am not the one that needs that 15 minutes break. Maybe I am in rush and maybe I dont want tostop.
Or maybe, my time is more important for me and I can manage it as I want not as the car wants…
Not to mention, I can not accept the idea of having a vehicle that impose on me a certain routine… like a robot…
I am a free man and a free soul. All I want is a car that can carry few jugs of fuel and some sandwiches.
I think that electric vehicle is about range and getting to the destination while the ICEvehicle is about the experience on random roads and unknownplaces, free and wild…

Look at the drive between Dallas and New Mexico, in TX. I get the issue completely.

[ggalanis]

Originally Posted by patrobX5

So they are already available at the dealers for a test drive? Because I read somewhere they are arriving beginning of this year

No they are not.
Back in November, they had an "event' at my dealer where they had an i4 and an iX on display in the dealership. No driving of either.

It was an opportunity to see it in the flesh (it really looks better in person than in pics as the grille is less overwhelming), sit in it, touch and feel it, play with idrive 8 a bit, take measurements (like i did to compare the trunk to my X5), and of course get you interested in making a deposit.


Those same 2 cars were being shipped from one dealership to another; mine had them for 2 days (Nov 9th-10th). You may have missed them when they were at your dealer but maybe they are still doing these types of events so you may want to ask them.

From what my salesman told me then, they would only be available for test drives at dealerships starting around April 2022. The guestimated ballpark he gave us in Nov in terms of timing of a delivery if we gave a deposit around then was approx 1 year. I gave my deposit Dec 1st and have not gotten any information back for timing. I am not in a huge hurry as I wouldn't want it before May 2022, but I have no idea when I can expect to actually get it and that is annoying me to be honest.

[npa201]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

That's a quick question without an easy answer. The answer is it depends on where you live, and what a "'long trip" is.

At this moment, I would still keep an ICE for longer trips. Right now, our primary trip car is my wife's Cayenne Diesel, which is a superb long trip car, only let down by the lack of radar cruise. We've driven from Houston to Colorado a half dozen times and also driven to Florida multiple times. I think we've about given up on the Colorado trip thing as our kids are much better about flying now that they are older, although...COVID. So if I limit my trip driving to just Florida....I think I could do it in a long range EV.

BUT

My experience with DCFC (fast charging) is with Tesla, and the Supercharger network works and can be counted upon. The CCS network (EA and such) is, from what I have heard from other EV owners, not as robust. That is the number one reason that gives me pause. Not having to charge. The fear of pulling up to the ONE EA charger in 100 miles and it not working. Once that's no longer a thing, my confidence would be much higher.

Being that I've done some pretty decently long road trips (up to Colorado is nearly 1,200 miles) and I'm an obsessive route planner and we're pretty iron butted when it comes to stopping, I've planned the route in multiple EV's. In anything other than a Tesla, I cannot go to CO through NW Texas Panhandle. I have to go north through Kansas and then West. That adds miles and time. That, plus the charging time, turns a 1.5 dat drive into a 2 day drive, and that sucks.

Going to Florida panhandle is about a 9.5 hour drive with no traffic. In reality, with stops and traffic, it usually takes us about 10:30 to 11. In an EV, with stops, it turns into about an 12 hour drive. So adding an hour, hour and fifteen doesn't seem bad until it takes a 10.5 hour drive to nearly a 12 hour one.

Also, my wife worries more than I do, lol.

I do these trips once a year, MAX. Logic says I should buy an iX, as it should be easy enough for intra-Texas driving even with stops. I've done Houston - Dallas - Houston in a day (450 miles) in the Tesla and also in her Cayenne and the difference is maybe 40 minutes each leg. If not 30. So I could pretty easily get an iX and then just rent a nice SUV to go to FL or Colorado with.

But I suspect I probably won't.

If EA were as reliable as Superchargers, and in about the same amount of locations? I think I would.

Honest answer, hope this helps.

Thanks for the response. I think it makes sense. I have not looked at what the EA charging situation is near me (in northern NJ) and need to.

I've been work from home for nearly two years now but we have attempted at times to go back to work in a hybrid situation. Commuting into NYC via mass transit is somewhat limited for me as the lines I used to take have significantly reduced the number of trips they would take in a given day leading me to have to drive. I currently drive an X5 M50I which has been a fantastic car although perhaps not the best option to drive into NYC given its size which is why I put a model Y performance on order. That said, I have serious concerns about the car. I worry about build quality of course. The harsh suspension. But I really worry about service support (an uber credit if your car is in the shop?). So as a hedge, I've also put a deposit on the IX. It looks much more like what I'm used to with the x5 - luxury and all and perhaps even better driving dynamics. That said the size won't be great for NYC commuting. Current plan is to accept delivery of the model Y and hopefully resale market holds fairly firm and so I can make a decision come August (in an ideal world, mass transit options open up and I get rid of Tesla and get IX).

Although I haven't lived with an EV, at most I drive about 50 miles per day. When I think about trips we've made as a family, we've probably only driven out 4hr-5hr from home (and that was 1x in the past 3 years). It just seems like range anxiety should not be something I fear at all. That said, during the summers I often go away for the weekends about 75 miles away and that can have traffic and local driving through the course of the weekend, and so I guess I have to check what the availability is of super chargers and EA chargers near those areas.

What I'm trying to figure out (but I guess we'll learn if it makes sense when we accept delivery with the Tesla) is if we can actually get by with two EV's (and get rid of x5 m50i despite my initial plan to run one of the last V8's into the ground).

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by npa201

Thanks for the response. I think it makes sense. I have not looked at what the EA charging situation is near me (in northern NJ) and need to.

I've been work from home for nearly two years now but we have attempted at times to go back to work in a hybrid situation. Commuting into NYC via mass transit is somewhat limited for me as the lines I used to take have significantly reduced the number of trips they would take in a given day leading me to have to drive. I currently drive an X5 M50I which has been a fantastic car although perhaps not the best option to drive into NYC given its size which is why I put a model Y performance on order. That said, I have serious concerns about the car. I worry about build quality of course. The harsh suspension. But I really worry about service support (an uber credit if your car is in the shop?). So as a hedge, I've also put a deposit on the IX. It looks much more like what I'm used to with the x5 - luxury and all and perhaps even better driving dynamics. That said the size won't be great for NYC commuting. Current plan is to accept delivery of the model Y and hopefully resale market holds fairly firm and so I can make a decision come August (in an ideal world, mass transit options open up and I get rid of Tesla and get IX).

Although I haven't lived with an EV, at most I drive about 50 miles per day. When I think about trips we've made as a family, we've probably only driven out 4hr-5hr from home (and that was 1x in the past 3 years). It just seems like range anxiety should not be something I fear at all. That said, during the summers I often go away for the weekends about 75 miles away and that can have traffic and local driving through the course of the weekend, and so I guess I have to check what the availability is of super chargers and EA chargers near those areas.

What I'm trying to figure out (but I guess we'll learn if it makes sense when we accept delivery with the Tesla) is if we can actually get by with two EV's (and get rid of x5 m50i despite my initial plan to run one of the last V8's into the ground).

I get your commute. I've never commuted into NYC (on purpose!) but I grew up in Rockland County and knew plenty of friends and family who did, including my Dad. I also lived in Morris County for 4 years. Range...you're fine. My old commute was 90 miles each way, and some days up to 150-160 miles depending on sites I went to. I used to do that on maybe 70% battery in the dead of winter, and probably 55-60% in the summer. You going to the beach or the mountains for the weekend is a dawdle. And most of those places will have a dryer plug. Get the appropriate connector for the Mobile Charge cable that comes with the car and you have your backup.

Definitely take delivery of the Tesla. Why? It's a good gateway drug into EV's. The resale value will remain high and you should be able to easily get rid of it, and you have the best charging network around. Superchargers in your area are pretty plentiful, and they WORK.

The ride isn't THAT bad. Really. Stick with the 19's (?) and you'll be fine, even over NYC pavement hell.

Build quality is....hit or miss. You get a good one or a bad one. More good than bad, but bad can be very bad. Expect less quality than you are paying for...think high end Honda. You're paying for the drivetrain and the electronics.

Yes, Uber credits in place of a loaner are annoying as hell. I tolerate it (barely) because I have a third car. I uber home and take that, or get a ride.

Tesla service / customer service is a JOKE. Seriously, you get better customer service just about anywhere. The good thing is, you don't need it often.

I whine about the Tesla because I'm an enthusiast, and the car isn't what many people make it out to be. That's because most of them have no frame of reference. But...consider the corollary. Tesla (outside the blind Musk worshipers) vehicles are turning people who never cared about cars, for whom driving was a chore, into people who CARE. Who actually LIKE cars and now think about driving and doing things with their car just to do stuff with their car. You know, like us crazy petrolheads. When you step back and think about that, it's actually kind of remarkable and illuminating. If you can get around the flinty ride, and avoid having to have your car in service, and if you can charge at home, there really are fewer commuter machines more pleasurable at the price.

Just don't, whatever you do, pay for that scam of "Full" "Self" Driving.

[npa201]

Sadly to get the car sooner, I will be getting the Model Y Performance which has 21" wheels (at least it sounds like it will come with all-season tires).

There is zero chance I will ever pay for full self driving. We have auto cruise control on the x5 m50i and I can count the # of times i've ever used it on one hand. With everything I've heard about phantom braking, I doubt I'll even use the model y's autopilot.

Also have a Rivian on order (deposit is fully refundable) and while it seems like it may end up being more functional than the IX, I have zero confidence that it will arrive by the estimated 2H23 they have told me. And who knows what reliability will be like and the service offering. I assume there will be a bunch of growing pains which is what led me down the path of the IX even though on paper, it looks inferior to the Rivian. In general, I've just had really good experiences with BMW's even if there is a fair bit of maintenance (would be awesome if the IX ends having little maintenance but we shall see about that). Plus I just think the interior looks a lot more luxurious than the competing offerings (The Taycan being the only other one that to me looks beautiful on the inside, sat in an EQS, it was whatever).

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by npa201

Sadly to get the car sooner, I will be getting the Model Y Performance which has 21" wheels (at least it sounds like it will come with all-season tires).

There is zero chance I will ever pay for full self driving. We have auto cruise control on the x5 m50i and I can count the # of times i've ever used it on one hand. With everything I've heard about phantom braking, I doubt I'll even use the model y's autopilot.

Also have a Rivian on order (deposit is fully refundable) and while it seems like it may end up being more functional than the IX, I have zero confidence that it will arrive by the estimated 2H23 they have told me. And who knows what reliability will be like and the service offering. I assume there will be a bunch of growing pains which is what led me down the path of the IX even though on paper, it looks inferior to the Rivian. In general, I've just had really good experiences with BMW's even if there is a fair bit of maintenance (would be awesome if the IX ends having little maintenance but we shall see about that). Plus I just think the interior looks a lot more luxurious than the competing offerings (The Taycan being the only other one that to me looks beautiful on the inside, sat in an EQS, it was whatever).

You'll like Tesla Auto Pilot (ACC and Autosteer). It's very good. Phantom braking...overblown issue for sure. Yes, it happens, but judging by what I've heard about other ACC systems, it's not out of line for errors.

Agree with you on the Rivian. Looks fantastic but....there are a lot of buts.

The iX being inferior...somewhat. Power wise, for sure. Gadgets, maybe. But the Rivian is a straight Tesla clone interior, right down to the scoll wheels on the steering wheel for everything. That can get annoying after a while.