[chadkoepf]

every car will have issues eventually. I've had issues with a BMW 135i back in the early 2000s, BMW was quick to fix the problem, and provided me with a loaner for a few weeks while they diagnosed and fixed the issue. Also, it was done free of charge, obviously. I don't judge a car on if it breaks, I judge the company on how they handle it WHEN it breaks, and Tesla failed miserably.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

E30 had 300k miles no rebuild. I sold it still running really good. I was just looking at the high mileage and was worried. Clutch had almost 200k.

E36 M3 had about 250k if I remember correctly. I think original owner did a clutch. I never needed another.

E90 335i 245k, original turbos no rattles. Did go through 5 fuel pumps on BMW. They had a warehouse full of fuel pumps and no way to tell which one were crap. Also 3 sets of injectors. Fire damage totaled the car.

I've done over a million miles on BMWs and have never had an engine failure. my first BMW had almost 400k when I traded it in on the E30.

Very nice! I do wonder with today's battery tech, does any of your cars with EV tech can last 200k+ without battery swap.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Very nice! I do wonder with today's battery tech, does any of your cars with EV tech can last 200k+ without battery swap.

I think it really depends on charging and driving habits.
of you use DC charging a lot probably not.
if on the other hand you charge with 120/240 and only to 90% and charge up to 100% when you anticipate long distances you might make it.

I took my daughter's 2nd EV, a Bolt to turn in last year, and at 42k miles I wasn't seeing any degrade in the battery at all.

Tesla is going to be using cheaper heavier iron based batteries in the standard range cars. That tech, although less dense, has 2x the charge cycles.

We shall see. One good thing about the i4 is that the battery is fairly easy to remove since it's bolted in at the bottom and not an integral part of the chassis. The TM3 is moving to make the castings bolt directly to the battery on each end. They are also moving to bolting the seats to the battery structure directly. I anticipate an iFixit score like a cell phone soon.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by chadkoepf

every car will have issues eventually. I've had issues with a BMW 135i back in the early 2000s, BMW was quick to fix the problem, and provided me with a loaner for a few weeks while they diagnosed and fixed the issue. Also, it was done free of charge, obviously. I don't judge a car on if it breaks, I judge the company on how they handle it WHEN it breaks, and Tesla failed miserably.

I think Tesla being a tech company builds its cars as sealed consumer products which are meant to be replaced if faulty, so customers really need to align to that "philosophy" to understand what they pay for.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Tesla is going to be using cheaper heavier iron based batteries in the standard range cars. That tech, although less dense, has 2x the charge cycles.

We shall see. One good thing about the i4 is that the battery is fairly easy to remove since it's bolted in at the bottom and not an integral part of the chassis. The TM3 is moving to make the castings bolt directly to the battery on each end. They are also moving to bolting the seats to the battery structure directly. I anticipate an iFixit score like a cell phone soon.

2x charge cycles are cool, so does BMW battery has similar conservative battery techs?

Hmm I guess future TM3 may get to experience the hot seats on top of the battery pack in more than one way.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I think Tesla being a tech company builds its cars as sealed consumer products which are meant to be replaced if faulty, so customers really need to align to that "philosophy" to understand what they pay for.

I've had issues and even outside of warranty BMW has stepped up.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I've had issues and even outside of warranty BMW has stepped up.

Dealer did fix a leaking thermostat housing on my E39 a few months out of warranty. That is a sharp contrast to Tesla, or even Lexus(who refused to fix my friend's slipping transmission on RX when issues started way within warranty).

[techwhiz1]

For those that are interested in how BMW and Tesla compare and how they compare to rest of the industry for ADAS here is an article that lists them all:

https://www.cars.com/articles/which-...r-2021-433821/

Also note that BMW has filed paperwork with the NTHSA for L3 ADAS.

After reading the linked article you will see that Tesla is not as far ahead as people would like to believe it that Elon says.

From the article:
"BMW is one of three brands in the U.S. (the others are Cadillac and Ford) to offer conditional hands-free driving for the 2021 model year, and more are coming. In our experience with ETJA, the system transitions to hands-on lane centering when you pass 40 mph"

So now let's say it together TM3 fan boys/girls....
BMW has a more advanced ADAS system than Tesla.

Kind of of got stuck? Didn't it?

Also:
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/w...ke-172902.html

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

...For me it's just lacking the trappings of what I expect on a $60k vehicle.

My math when I purchased it was: the only way to get comparable performance in an ICE sports sedan would have been to spend nearly twice as much. (Audi RS7/MB E63/BMW M5).

Even the comparably-sized ICE competitors were at least $25K more, and wouldn't sniff which way the TM3P went in any street driving. (don't bore me with useless/pointless track times or theoretical multi-lap "races" - these are street cars).

Nope, it doesn't have Corinthian leather - but it does have all the goods to make street driving a riot, and costs next-to nothing to run.

Win/win in my book. YMMV.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

but it does have all the goods to make street driving a riot... YMMV.

(emphasis added).

I think this accurately gets to the root of the difference for many here. Those who seek the kind of experience your describe/value, as compared to those more, or exclusively, interested in a wide range of other attributes. "Riot"-ous street driving has zero interest for me.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

For those that are interested in how BMW and Tesla compare and how they compare to rest of the industry for ADAS here is an article that lists them all:

That article is from March - eons ago where these technologies are concerned.

Full Self Driving is now available to beta testers. It's not without its flaws or limitations, but it's FAR beyond anything available from any other manufacturer, because its functionality is available on most roads, not just on limited-access freeways.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I've had issues and even outside of warranty BMW has stepped up.

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Dealer did fix a leaking thermostat housing on my E39 a few months out of warranty. That is a sharp contrast to Tesla, or even Lexus(who refused to fix my friend's slipping transmission on RX when issues started way within warranty).

We all have our own experiences.

BMW told me to go pound on repeated problems not once but twice on the same car. Both times I had to go to the GM of the selling dealership to intervene. The first time the issue was fixed (after about 4 visits).

The second time BMW said "live with it, we're not fixing it". I had the head tech rep for the Southern section tell me, to my face, that BMW was aware of the problem (transmission drivability issues) however since the number of complaints per 1000 vehicles was below their thresholds, there was nothing that they were willing to do about it.

So giving customers the shaft is certainly something all auto manufacturers do.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

"Riot"-ous street driving has zero interest for me.

That explains the vehicles in your garage at least....

And yep, enjoying the car I drive and having fun driving are paramount to me...

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

That explains the vehicles in your garage at least....

And yep, enjoying the car I drive and having fun driving are paramount to me...

Yes, it absolutely does explain them perfectly! But wait...there's more! Those two 4 cylinder cars in my signature are just mine. Then, there's my wife's 4 cylinder Mini Countryman S. So, we specificied and ordered three cars with BMWAG 4 cylinder engines...on purpose...from all the possible choices out there. And, the 2 Series is 4 cyl/rear wheel drive/3 pedals, as the universe intended for BMWs to be...just like 2002s (a model name, not a year).

I enjoy and have fun with mine as well. Fun is how one defines it. Mine doesn't include tenths of seconds to the next red light or arriving there ahead of the idiot in the next lane who thinks it's a race. When it comes to the i4, if I go ahead, that will definitely be the rwd eDrive 40 model.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Fun is how one defines it.

Focusing on a single aspect of fun misses the point, indeed.

I've owned 4-cylinder, manual-transmission vehicles myself, and they were fun - back in the 80s and 90s.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

Focusing on a single aspect of fun misses the point, indeed.

I've owned 4-cylinder, manual-transmission vehicles myself, and they were fun - back in the 80s and 90s.

I am not sure M3, esp. M3P, is really fun when the car wobbles and sways at high speed.

The driver may have lots of reckless fun, but passengers in the Tesla, or drivers that share the roads, or CHP(etc, etc), are not impressed.

[kbsilver]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

Focusing on a single aspect of fun misses the point, indeed.

I've owned 4-cylinder, manual-transmission vehicles myself, and they were fun - back in the 80s and 90s.

Many say it's more fun/exciting to drive a slow car fast than a fast car fast. But that was in the days of a manual transmission

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I am not sure M3, esp. M3P, is really fun...

That’s OK - you’ll never own one so it doesn’t matter whether you’d find it fun or not.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

That article is from March - eons ago where these technologies are concerned.

Full Self Driving is now available to beta testers. It's not without its flaws or limitations, but it's FAR beyond anything available from any other manufacturer, because its functionality is available on most roads, not just on limited-access freeways.

You are absolutely not correct.
Tesla requires *hands on wheel* at all times. This is required because there is no redundant vision hardware. You can call it anything you want but it's Level 2 ADAS.

BMW, GM, Ford all have hands free at some speed.
They all require driver to watch the road.
BMW has filed paperwork for L3 ADAS.

GM can cruise at highway speeds with no hands and no requirements for hands. Redundant vision system.

BMW up to 40MPH and plans to increase that with an update. 40MPH hands free is for traffic jams. BMW uses a system that has both 360 cameras and radar.
The system is redundant so that a system failure will be graceful if a component fails without your hands on the wheel.

Not sure about Ford and the speed they support.

Anyway, Tesla has great marketing but their vision and ADAS is not the most advanced in the industry. It's the most dangerous in the industry.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

My math when I purchased it was: the only way to get comparable performance in an ICE sports sedan would have been to spend nearly twice as much. (Audi RS7/MB E63/BMW M5).

Even the comparably-sized ICE competitors were at least $25K more, and wouldn't sniff which way the TM3P went in any street driving. (don't bore me with useless/pointless track times or theoretical multi-lap "races" - these are street cars).

Nope, it doesn't have Corinthian leather - but it does have all the goods to make street driving a riot, and costs next-to nothing to run.

Win/win in my book. YMMV.

Glad it works for you.

The value proposition of stop light racing just doesn't appeal to me.

TM3 just doesn't work for me on so many levels.
Limited choices on interior.colors.
Paint quality.
Fit and finish.
Supply chain and repairs if.needed.
No iPhone/Android integration.
No satellite radio.
Wind noise at high speeds.
etc.....


Chevy Bolt I bought for my daughter has a better value proposition.
Hard pass on the TM3.

[ZCD1]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Chevy Bolt I bought for my daughter has a better value proposition...

Chevy Bolt?!?!? Oh, you mean the car with a battery flaw so dangerous that EVERY ONE EVER MADE was recalled?!?

Oh yeah - great value there.

Back on topic, why are you posting about not caring about acceleration in a thread dedicated to comparing the acceleration of a Tesla and a BMW?!?

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ZCD1

That’s OK - you’ll never own one so it doesn’t matter whether you’d find it fun or not.

I do own Tesla's best product, which currently is not its cars.