[frank70]

I got a popup message today on my iPhone stating that Spotify lossless audio is available now.

As i have read here multiple times in the forum that the only way to REALLY enjoy the Bowers & Wilkins audio in the iX is through high definition audio files, i am very interested in using spotify lossless audio.

Setting it up on the iPhone (15 Pro) was not difficult. I now set it up so that i use lossless quality through Wifi and for downloaded music, and keep the old automatic setting for mobile internet for now.

Now we get to my problem : i assume the only way to get spotify lossless audio is when i use spotify through my iphone through Carplay. And here i always get the problem that audio will be extremely muted. It is like that 90% of the time.

Does anyone know what is causing Carplay audio to be so extremely muted over and over again. It has always been like that in my car since i have had it (2 years now nearly). It only has functioned normally very rarely.

There must be some cause (maybe some apps that need to be closed or so on the phone, but i do not know which), and i have also read that others also have this issue.

So does anyone know how to solve this ?

The 2nd question is : i assume there is no way to get the Spotify lossless audio through BMW´s build in Spotify app ? Or is there ? The cars integrated Spotify app works through the cars own mobile internet, right ? And there is no setting to change the audio quality i assume ?

Maybe BMW will offer a higher quality audio package with lossless audio streaming at some point, for a extra yearly / monthly fee.

[darylp310]

If your audio is muted over CarPlay, usually just a reset of the iDrive system or the phone itself will fix it. I get that bug every 4-5 months it seems.

BTW, you don’t have to use CarPlay to play music from your phone. If you plugin a USB-C cable you can press the [Media] button and navigate your phone audio just like a USB hard drive and play the songs over USB. I know this works for Apple Music and iPhone at least. It’s a good hack in case you have some issue with CarPlay.

[frank70]

I can surely select lossless audio also for mobile internet, in my spotify app on my iphone. But i do not think this will then also automatically apply to the mobile internet that my BMW uses for the build-in Spotify app. Or does it use my mobile connection through my iphone as well ?

Or will a change in the Spotify settings in my iPhone affect all other devices as well ?

[Paladin1]

BMW doesn't need to do anything - if you have a Premium Spotify subscription you can enable lossless audio in your Spotify profile (it requires a pretty robust Internet connection on your device to play smoothly due to the data transfer rate). In-car connectivity is through the integral SIM which is 5G at best for the app, so you'll need to use a wired connection because BT will compress the audio, and the built-in WiFi, which CarPlay and AA use, is 16bit/44.1kHz (CD quality).

[RealBmwBoy]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

BMW doesn't need to do anything - if you have a Premium Spotify subscription you can enable lossless audio in your Spotify profile (it requires a pretty robust Internet connection on your device to play smoothly due to the data transfer rate). In-car connectivity is through the integral SIM which is 5G at best for the app, so you'll need to use a wired connection because BT will compress the audio, and the built-in WiFi, which CarPlay and AA use, is 16bit/44.1kHz (CD quality).

No, the iX can’t play lossless audio in the car — it only supports up to 320 kbps.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by RealBmwBoy

No, the iX can’t play lossless audio in the car — it only supports up to 320 kbps.

First, 320 kbps is the highest bitrate for MP3 files, and is very close to CD quality audio. Second, that quality refers to wireless audio. Your wired phone (as mentioned) or flash drive files are only limited by the format, and you can certainly play uncompressed 700kbps FLAC files from a USB drive in the center console. Spotify, as noted, will play lossless audio from your phone if you have a Premium subscription and select that format, again subject to the connectivity speed of your in-home or in-car WiFi with CarPlay or AA, which is 16bit/44.1kHz (again CD quality) in BMW.

[NomoTesla]

I just googled this, so may be wrong:

Wireless CarPlay is limited to 16-bit/44.1 kHz.

Wired Carplay is limited to 24-bit/48 kHz (iPhone DAC limitation).

That doesn't seem like much difference. And the iX doesn't support wired Carplay, anyway, right? So CD quality is the best anyone is going to get. As if that isn't good enough? lol

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

That doesn't seem like much difference.

Something to think about... 24-bit/48 kHz has about 280 times more musical content than 16-bit/44.1 kHz.

[Paladin1]

Multiple solutions here. As darylp310 mentioned, if your phone supports it a USB C/C cable to one of the center console data ports will treat your phone as an audio device, and you can play files directly through Media settings, just as with a USB flash drive. Either is limited only by the quality of the audio files themselves, depending on what you have downloaded/ripped.

BT compresses audio for transmission, but if the source file is lossless the audio quality is quite good (almost CD level) - you can test this for yourself connecting you phone for audio via BT and trying different, known files.

A comparison test is to connect your phone through the iX's built-in WiFi, and play the same files through CarPlay or AA. Spotify now supports lossless transmission up to 24-bit/44.1 kHz FLAC with a Premium subscription, although the internal WiFi only supports 16-bit/44.1 kHz, which will be indistinguishable from the higher rate to almost all users, and is still lossless - and CD or higher quality (Apple and Tidal are arguably slightly better). The integral Spotify app may be equivalent, but I haven't seen the specs.

Moving up, a USB flash drive with ripped FLAC audio will provide the highest quality audio, and will test the B&W Diamond system to its limits (and get the best sound possible from the HK system as well). Even seasoned audiophiles should not be disappointed with either system using the highest quality audio source in the iX setting (which to be fair is not the same standard as your home system in your acoustically calibrated listening room, but for in-car audio is better than pretty good).

[RealBmwBoy]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

First, 320 kbps is the highest bitrate for MP3 files, and is very close to CD quality audio. Second, that quality refers to wireless audio. Your wired phone (as mentioned) or flash drive files are only limited by the format, and you can certainly play uncompressed 700kbps FLAC files from a USB drive in the center console. Spotify, as noted, will play lossless audio from your phone if you have a Premium subscription and select that format, again subject to the connectivity speed of your in-home or in-car WiFi with CarPlay or AA, which is 16bit/44.1kHz (again CD quality) in BMW.

Just try it and you’ll understand what I’m talking about. At least my iX50 with HK can support up to 320 kbps. I also have Spotify Premium.

Lossless is good when I listen to it on other devices, but not in the iX.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by RealBmwBoy

Just try it and you’ll understand what I’m talking about. At least my iX50 with HK can support up to 320 kbps. I also have Spotify Premium.

Lossless is good when I listen to it on other devices, but not in the iX.

Some confusion here. These are the audio file types supported by iD8/8.5:

MP3, WMA, WAV (PCM), AAC, M4A(DRM free), and FLAC

FLAC and WAV are lossless formats - lossless meaning retaining all the data from the original source. And lossless files can be compressed (FLAC and Apple's ALAC for example - Apple Lossless Audio Codec). Bitrate is the amount of data transferred to audio over time. The bitrate is determined by the audio file format, and in part by the file size - not by your audio system. Streaming audio may be limited relative to bitrate depending on the network speed and bandwidth - generally capped out commercially at 256-320kbps for general audio transmission, but much higher bitrates can be and are sent over capable networks.

Lossless audio files are generally in the range of 700-1,411kbps and beyond. The BMW audio system is perfectly capable of processing and playing bitrates of 1,411kbps (CD industry standard) and beyond, in fact for years BMW had an in-car CD player option.

So with the above, what you are describing is the bitrate for a high quality MP3 file (320kbps). For the average listener on the average system, it can be hard to distinguish this format from CD quality audio. In the iX with either HK or B&W, the "heard" difference between this bitrate and the CD standard of 1,411 can be apparent because of the ability of the system to separate the data. And the BMW audio system can play this from the appropriate files, either transmitted through the in-car WiFi on CarPlay or AA, or played directly from stored files either on your phone or a USB flash drive. Or in the MP3 Codec at 320kbps using your phone (or other device) as a BT player.

Yes, the BMW iX sound system can play lossless audio files in either of the optioned audio systems - B&W or HK. And depending on the source and the medium used, yes, at a higher bitrate than 320kbps. And yes, a lossless audio file should sound better on either system than the equivalent "lossy" version of that file, with more details from the original music, but may not be important to you depending your taste, your hearing and your expectation from the music (Led Zeppelin played at 11 maybe). Hope that clarifies.

[NomoTesla]

The only way to play lossless files at full bit depth is by putting them on a USB drive and physically plugging that into the USB port. Carplay is wifi-only and cannot be wired in an iX to allow for true lossless playback using Carplay.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

The only way to play lossless files at full bit depth is by putting them on a USB drive and physically plugging that into the USB port. Carplay is wifi-only and cannot be wired in an iX to allow for true lossless playback using Carplay.

Depends on what you mean by "full bit depth" and the significance thereof, but yes, you can play "true" lossless files from CarPlay or AA through the 16-bit/44.1kHz WiFi connection (see above Spotify screenshot) and get pretty amazing sound from an in-car audio system, indistinguishable to most ears even in a more controlled listening space from the "full bit depth" possible with, for example a FLAC file played at 24-bit/352.8kHz available in Norway (or WAV files at 32-bit with a 192dB dynamic range), even with Warwick Acoustics' top end headphones or a TAD Reference One set of speakers in an acoustically dampened room. "True" lossless playback is certainly available by definition right now, as-is in the iX, but not at the ridiculously esoteric levels theoretically available from the very highest end systems and the very highest quality files technically possible in the most optimal listening space. Which on balance almost no existing sensors or microphones are available to record.

[avi66]

What codec/s does Apple use over wireless CarPlay for music ?

[OB1Kenobi]

Lossless versus lossy only refers to the compression of a file. CDs store audio as a stream of LPCM data at 16 bit depth per sample, and a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. You can use a computer to rip that audio to a .wav or .aiff file, and at that point there is no such thing as lossless or lossy, you have not compressed the file at all. If you play the file, you hear the audio exactly as it was on the CD.

Now if you wish to compress the files to save storage space and reduce bandwidth requirements then you have many compression options, such as MP3, AAC, Vorbis, FLAC, etc. If the compression algorithm discards some audio data, even parts that are outside of human perception, it is a lossy algorithm. That is because the original audio cannot be reconstructed with perfect accuracy any longer when the file is uncompressed for playback. MP3, AAC and Vorbis are common lossy compression algorithms, they achieve better compression ratios through lossy methods, the lost audio data is irreversible and gone forever. FLAC is also a compression algorithm, but it is lossless. It achieves a smaller compression ratio but it is 100% reversible, the original audio stream is reproduced exactly as the original after the file is uncompressed for playback.

If you understand all that, then the term "full bit depth" lossless means nothing. If I compress a mono 8-bit, 22.05 kHz audio file with FLAC, it's a lossless file, because nothing is lost as a result of the compression. The original audio is reproduced exactly as it was in the original file. The bit depth and sampling rate of the original file is irrelevant and people (and so-called audiophiles) mix this up all the time. If the audio is compressed with a lossy algorithm, it's lossy audio. If it's compressed with a lossless algorithm, it's lossless audio. If it's not compressed at all, then the term doesn't even apply.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by OB1Kenobi

Lossless versus lossy only refers to the compression of a file. CDs store audio as a stream of LPCM data at 16 bit depth per sample, and a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. You can use a computer to rip that audio to a .wav or .aiff file, and at that point there is no such thing as lossless or lossy, you have not compressed the file at all. If you play the file, you hear the audio exactly as it was on the CD.

Now if you wish to compress the files to save storage space and reduce bandwidth requirements then you have many compression options, such as MP3, AAC, Vorbis, FLAC, etc. If the compression algorithm discards some audio data, even parts that are outside of human perception, it is a lossy algorithm. That is because the original audio cannot be reconstructed with perfect accuracy any longer when the file is uncompressed for playback. MP3, AAC and Vorbis are common lossy compression algorithms, they achieve better compression ratios through lossy methods, the lost audio data is irreversible and gone forever. FLAC is also a compression algorithm, but it is lossless. It achieves a smaller compression ratio but it is 100% reversible, the original audio stream is reproduced exactly as the original after the file is uncompressed for playback.

If you understand all that, then the term "full bit depth" lossless means nothing. If I compress a mono 8-bit, 22.05 kHz audio file with FLAC, it's a lossless file, because nothing is lost as a result of the compression. The original audio is reproduced exactly as it was in the original file. The bit depth and sampling rate of the original file is irrelevant and people (and so-called audiophiles) mix this up all the time. If the audio is compressed with a lossy algorithm, it's lossy audio. If it's compressed with a lossless algorithm, it's lossless audio. If it's not compressed at all, then the term doesn't even apply.

^This, and a good explanation for a complex concept. Part of the confusion being the ability of a system to play "lossless" files (which most are capable of) versus getting the expected "lossless audio quality" out of it, which very much depends on the sub-components of your audio system and the quality of the original file. If you play a lossless FLAC file through BMW's internal WiFi connection, the audio on the other end will be CD quality at least (assuming the original file was), and the resulting sound will have lost very little usable data on the way compared to playing the original through a wired connection to most human ears. For the highest fidelity the USB data ports can play the file directly without lossy compression, but you might want to compare the two with the same file to see if you can tell if you're missing anything, and you might be surprised.

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by avi66

What codec/s does Apple use over wireless CarPlay for music ?

Not an iOS guy, but Apple uses ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Compression) and AAC or aptX Codecs for cellular streaming, depending on the iPhone and audio system, up to up to 24-bit/192 kHz (which they call Hi-Res lossless) according to Apple, but specifically limits Wireless CarPlay to AAC and MP3 formats, still high-res but not technically "lossless." The kicker is the dependence on network speed and conditions, and the end hardware. In the BMW, wireless transmission will be through the integral WiFi, which is 16-bit/44.1kHz - CD quality audio - discussed to a fare-thee-well here. A wired USB connection does not have that restriction, and thus could be said to be "higher quality," but also as discussed, "lossless" simply means no data is lost from the original transcription. Whether throttling the delivery of said lossless file to 16-bit/44.1kHz results in an audible difference playing on the iX system very much depends on the original file, what data is lost, and whether it was audibly significant.

[RealBmwBoy]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

Some confusion here. These are the audio file types supported by iD8/8.5:

MP3, WMA, WAV (PCM), AAC, M4A(DRM free), and FLAC

FLAC and WAV are lossless formats - lossless meaning retaining all the data from the original source. And lossless files can be compressed (FLAC and Apple's ALAC for example - Apple Lossless Audio Codec). Bitrate is the amount of data transferred to audio over time. The bitrate is determined by the audio file format, and in part by the file size - not by your audio system. Streaming audio may be limited relative to bitrate depending on the network speed and bandwidth - generally capped out commercially at 256-320kbps for general audio transmission, but much higher bitrates can be and are sent over capable networks.

Lossless audio files are generally in the range of 700-1,411kbps and beyond. The BMW audio system is perfectly capable of processing and playing bitrates of 1,411kbps (CD industry standard) and beyond, in fact for years BMW had an in-car CD player option.

So with the above, what you are describing is the bitrate for a high quality MP3 file (320kbps). For the average listener on the average system, it can be hard to distinguish this format from CD quality audio. In the iX with either HK or B&W, the "heard" difference between this bitrate and the CD standard of 1,411 can be apparent because of the ability of the system to separate the data. And the BMW audio system can play this from the appropriate files, either transmitted through the in-car WiFi on CarPlay or AA, or played directly from stored files either on your phone or a USB flash drive. Or in the MP3 Codec at 320kbps using your phone (or other device) as a BT player.

Yes, the BMW iX sound system can play lossless audio files in either of the optioned audio systems - B&W or HK. And depending on the source and the medium used, yes, at a higher bitrate than 320kbps. And yes, a lossless audio file should sound better on either system than the equivalent "lossy" version of that file, with more details from the original music, but may not be important to you depending your taste, your hearing and your expectation from the music (Led Zeppelin played at 11 maybe). Hope that clarifies.

Yes, lossless audio is available through a USB drive, but when using wireless playback — whether it’s Spotify or CarPlay — the maximum quality is limited to 320 kbps.

[jdubya007]

Originally Posted by RealBmwBoy

Yes, lossless audio is available through a USB drive, but when using wireless playback — whether it’s Spotify or CarPlay — the maximum quality is limited to 320 kbps.

Is that a documented BMW limitation? Do you have a reference for that?

Max. CarPlay over WiFi is roughly 705 kbps. Unless BMW doesn't support that....


Thanks

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by RealBmwBoy

Yes, lossless audio is available through a USB drive, but when using wireless playback — whether it’s Spotify or CarPlay — the maximum quality is limited to 320 kbps.

In agreement, however your original statement was "No, the iX can’t play lossless audio in the car — it only supports up to 320 kbps."

Without qualifiers that statement is incorrect, and my comment above "depending on the source and the medium used, yes, at a higher bitrate than 320kbps" refers to files played from removable media - which can obviously have a higher bitrate than 320kbps depending on the source format - lossless being one of them.

As an observation throughout these discussions, the bitrate can be less significant than the source file(s) and the compression algorithm. BMW's integral WiFi is capable of 16-bit/44.1kHz transmission, which translates to 1,411kbps - considered "lossless" quality audio and the industry standard for CD definition. The limiting factor being the source file. Spotify confirms that the native Spotify app in BMW does not support lossless files (not available in the settings in the app), hence the inability to play lossless audio files directly from the app.

You can however set the Spotify app on your phone to play lossless files (with a Premium subscription) - which it will do natively depending on network capability, however the Codecs in both AA and CarPlay will compress files for wireless transmission to save bandwidth - so even over the wireless in-car WiFi connection (which will support lossless transmission) will add some compression - hence the wireless limitation for whatever the phone supports . However if you connected your phone as a device with a USB C data cable, it would play lossless files streaming to your phone (through BMW's lossless-capable WiFi) or downloaded.

All that said, if the WiFi sample rate was 20kHz (vice 44.1) you would also get 320kbps. Which would likely sound terrible, either as a mono channel or with substantial bits of the music removed. The bitrate wireless "limitation" in the BMW system is achieved however by the excellent compression algorithms used, which preferentially discards the "unhearable" data and the resulting sound is near-CD quality, and superior to BT.

[Jeff661]

What if I’m connected wired? C=C. I have an iPhone 17. Downloaded lossless in Spotify which I think is 24bit 44.1khz. I can turn off wifi and BT, connect my phone in media and play through Spotify. On Spotify on the line where it shows the song playing it says “Lossless Wired”. I have the BW stereo. So, what is it actually playing? I tried to go back and forth between wired and wireless CarPlay and I’m not sure if I can hear a difference.

[darylp310]

Originally Posted by Jeff661

What if I’m connected wired? C=C. I have an iPhone 17. Downloaded lossless in Spotify which I think is 24bit 44.1khz. I can turn off wifi and BT, connect my phone in media and play through Spotify. On Spotify on the line where it shows the song playing it says “Lossless Wired”. I have the BW stereo. So, what is it actually playing? I tried to go back and forth between wired and wireless CarPlay and I’m not sure if I can hear a difference.

I don’t think anyone would be able to tell the difference. It’s should be virtually indistinguishable.

I do some audio engineering/music production and playing back lossless masters of songs over Wireless CarPlay on the B&W is like playing back in my studio. Anyone telling you they can tell the diffence is fooling themselves.