[Quadruple VANOS]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Fact of the matter is that once ICE vehicles are phased out, we will all have no choice.
And the fact is that successive generations who grow up seeing Teslas and other EVs as the norm won’t give a damn about how “good” your car sounds with catless downpipes. Their dream cars will be the Model S Plaids, Ioniq Ns, Taycan Turbo S etc. Most of the people who rail against EVs are older and stuck in their ways, let’s be real about it.

Fact is, consumers can go a lot longer without buying a new car than manufacturers can go without sales. At the end of the day manufacturers have the obligation to win over consumers so they give them money for their products. Sales aren’t a given and must be earned.

[Luminor513]

Originally Posted by FultonMDUSA

https://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-...e-station-faqs

The NACS, the association for convenience and fuel retailing, reports that there are more than 145,000 fueling stations across the United States. 127,588 of these stations are convenience stores selling fuel. The rest are gas-only stations, grocery stores selling fuel, marinas, etc.

I stand corrected on the number of gas stations, however rural areas are still not feasible for long distance EV trips, and very difficult to find reliable chargers. Ask any EV owner who has road tripped through rural America. Road tripping up and down the east or west coast is not the same as road tripping through rural Arkansas. Again I’m all for EV adoption, we have EV’s in our household, I’m just speaking from real experience that the public charging networks are still nowhere near the same coverage. And this article which this entire thread is about, is a step in the right direction….When and IF it becomes a reality, which will take years from now if it actually happens (which I hope it does).

[ricerboi]

Originally Posted by FultonMDUSA

You didn't show us how much it costs to fill up in Singapore.

Good lord. I was in Singapore last week and it’s the equivalent of $12USD/gallon. Many drive 30 min across the border to Johor Bahru in Malaysia to fill up for half the price.

Well it’s all relative. With the price of the COE (almost $100k) in Singapore, even a Honda Civic costs $150k+ in Singapore.

[NomoTesla]

Too little, too late. Tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of EV owners are having a shit experience TODAY because these same companies refused to invest in this several years ago. This is totally half-assed.

[Jeff661]

Originally Posted by exxxviii

Here's the other little tidbit of truth here that most folks are missing... It makes almost no sense to compare the uptime of CCS 1 stations versus Tesla, because that world is going away fast.

There are like 4x more Teslas on the road in the US compared to all the other CCS 1 cars combined. (It is probably more than that.) DCFC charging stations cost a lot to maintain - CCS 1 is a stupidly expensive design, and the cords alone cost a fortune compared to NACS cords. They have a very high fixed cost and a tiny consumer base, so they are unprofitable.

As soon as the existing networks switch to NACS/J3400, their addressable market massively multiplies. They can all become profitable almost overnight. And then, they have the revenue stream to support the maintenance costs.

This is a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing for the non-Tesla DCFC networks. They built them out with hopes that many CCS cars will come, nobody has manufactured in significant volume. As they move to NACS/J3400, their financial outlooks transform.

Except that Tesla charge at the non-Tesla DCFC stations too. When I go to an EA station, half the cars charging are Teslas.

[akin67]

Originally Posted by Luminor513

This is certainly nice PR for the future of EV growth. Reality of these things is they take much longer to turn into reality, and more important than even building a charging infrastructure/network, is MAINTAINING IT. This is evident with how Tesla maintains their charging network vs Electrify America. I’m all for universal connector standards, at least here in North America, and I’m all for expanding EV adoption. For daily commutes, living with an EV is fairly straightforward as almost everyone (not everyone) has access to L2 chargers for home charging. Road trips are a whole different animal and EV’s are nowhere near comparable to ICE. Even if every charging station was reliably functioning, it’s nowhere near the millions of gas stations across the US, particularly in rural areas. If they built half a million reliable EV charging stations, then we can debate. 30k charging stations is nice addition, but it’s a drop in the bucket compared to fueling station infrastructure for ICE. Road tripping, particularly in the vast rural areas of the US, is still owned by ICE for the forseable future.

You will never need as many charging stations as you have gas stations. 100% of ICE vehicles have to fuel up at gas stations, whereas only a small fraction of electric cars have to fuel up at charging stations, since 95% of the time they will be fueling up at home. Currently the number of EV's on the road is still very limited. By 2030, when they are expected to make up a much larger percentage, solid state batteries will be available with longer range, further reducing frequency of charging and also higher voltage and solid state battery technology will drop that 20 - 80% charge to under 10 minutes, reducing the time a car occupies a charging station. Today we are still dealing with the early adopter stage and these consumers are willing to absorb some of the inconveniences that come with that status. The near future will be very different.

[Luminor513]

Originally Posted by akin67

You will never need as many charging stations as you have gas stations. 100% of ICE vehicles have to fuel up at gas stations, whereas only a small fraction of electric cars have to fuel up at charging stations, since 95% of the time they will be fueling up at home. Currently the number of EV's on the road is still very limited. By 2030, when they are expected to make up a much larger percentage, solid state batteries will be available with longer range, further reducing frequency of charging and also higher voltage and solid state battery technology will drop that 20 - 80% charge to under 10 minutes, reducing the time a car occupies a charging station. Today we are still dealing with the early adopter stage and these consumers are willing to absorb some of the inconveniences that come with that status. The near future will be very different.

I’m certainly looking forward to a future where all forms of EV transport are easy on the general consumer. Solid state batteries is one way things will greatly improve, reliable and available public charging is another. All things are positive and I’m hopefully, maybe cautiously optimistic.

[exxxviii]

Originally Posted by Pictor

Comparing the cost of design is an interesting angle. How many SC cords/handles today can push more than 250kW or can charge batteries higher than 500v? How many of those SC cords are liquid cooled? What specifically, besides the limitation in power output, allows SC to use non-cooled cords? Don't CCS1 and CCS2 dispensers also have uncooled cords but at lower power limits?

Before anyone mentions v4 SC dispensers, I would like to remind you that we don't have any in the US and that the power output was just announced this week for EU (350kW at 1000v max) which sounds very much like the SK Signet and others out there that support CCS1 and CCS2. Folks like to conflate the plug with the quality of service provided by bad service providers.

800v cars that are able to accept 500A from a dispenser are in our future. The argument here seems to be stuck in 400v platforms and the largest US network of HPC's don't support that currently but the CCS1 network certainly does for the existing 800v cars. We need competition to drive improvements and this news from BMW is very welcome. Now there will be a new set of challenges that will need to be overcome and that's with the current limitation of 500A and I'm willing to bet that liquid cooling will play a major role.

Part of Tesla's secret sauce is its short Supercharger cords. The V4 cords are longer and liquid cooled. Teslas charge at insanely high current compared to CCS 1 cars, like north of 600A.

The 350 kW CCS DCFC chargers are rated for the 800V cars and 500A. There are not lots of them, but they are out there. (Very few cars can do 350 kW, so it is kind of moot.) There are a whole lot more of the CCS chargers that can do the ~190 kW charging of a 400V battery - those 500A chargers at 400V are far more common.

If Tesla did not current-limit their Magic Dock to 350A, any Tesla Supercharger could easily charge a CCS car at 195 kW. My hope is that they will open up that limit on the V3 SCs over the next year-ish.

[JK479]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Explain how what I said isn’t factual? I’ll wait. Show me the % of people who travel more than 200 miles a day for work and would actually need DC fast charging on a regular basis. I’ll wait.

LOL- you said it will be solved mid 2024!

You wrote “I’ll wait” twice. I’ll write LOL twice.

[JK479]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

No problem driving where I need to here in Southern California. I mean theoretically, I could drive 275 miles per day, 100,000 miles per year, without even charging on the road. Everyone has these hypothetical crisis when they drive long/long distances. If I have to put over 600 miles on my car, I would probably rather take a cheap rental car to rack up the miles on for that trip. But 99% of my driving is without any range compromises in my i4.

Our x5 (non hybrid) gets about 480 miles. I like EV’s but why take a cheap rental car on a trip and leave a nice car at home. Right now gas is easier. On the IX I get barely 290. And I’ve seen where a hot day (95 degrees) killed the battery just during it normally.

There’s a debate because it’s great but just not there for ease of use.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by JK479

LOL- you said it will be solved mid 2024!

You wrote “I’ll wait” twice. I’ll write LOL twice.

Again, you sound like a “feelings” guy. Note that the Volvo agreement below is essentially the same that GM and Ford worked out.
So do the math, thats Tesla, GM, Ford, Volvo and Polestar who will all have nationwide access to an extremely reliable and robust DC charging network by the first half of 2024.
And again, this doesn’t even take into account the fact that home AC charging is FAR more significant for the vast majority of people than DC charging:
“Drivers of Volvo Cars’ current line-up of fully electric cars, from the XC40 and C40 Recharge to the recently revealed EX30 and EX90, will be able to find charging locations through the Volvo Cars app and are anticipated to be able to use the Supercharger network with an adapter from the first half of 2024.”
https://www.media.volvocars.com/glob...ted-states-can

There’s some facts for you. Got anything in response other than feelings and “LOL”s? The “first half of 2024” equates to mid-2024 correct?

[JK479]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Again, you sound like a “feelings” guy. Note that the Volvo agreement below is essentially the same that GM and Ford worked out.
So do the math, thats Tesla, GM, Ford, Volvo and Polestar who will all have nationwide access to an extremely reliable and robust DC charging network by the first half of 2024.
And again, this doesn’t even take into account the fact that home AC charging is FAR more significant for the vast majority of people than DC charging:
“Drivers of Volvo Cars’ current line-up of fully electric cars, from the XC40 and C40 Recharge to the recently revealed EX30 and EX90, will be able to find charging locations through the Volvo Cars app and are anticipated to be able to use the Supercharger network with an adapter from the first half of 2024.”
https://www.media.volvocars.com/glob...ted-states-can

There’s some facts for you. Got anything in response other than feelings and “LOL”s? The “first half of 2024” equates to mid-2024 correct?

Odd- I called you a feelings guy too. I guess we cancel each other out? Fax.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by JK479

Odd- I called you a feelings guy too. I guess we cancel each other out? Fax.

If you say so. Difference is only one of us has presented facts. So draw from that a conclusion as to who is who.

[JK479]

Originally Posted by jmack123

If you say so. Difference is only one of us has presented facts. So draw from that a conclusion as to who is who.

I’m choosing not to get into an argument with you. Who needs arrows in there back from such a complicated topic.

[sor]

This just underscores why charging network deals between manufacturers are dumb.

Any NACS vehicle should be able to pull up to a Tesla supercharger and charge. Any Tesla should be able to pull up to this new network and charge. Done, end of story, end of charging wars.

Granted there will always be the “2 free years of charging with purchase” type deals… that’s different.

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by Luminor513

I stand corrected on the number of gas stations, however rural areas are still not feasible for long distance EV trips, and very difficult to find reliable chargers. Ask any EV owner who has road tripped through rural America. Road tripping up and down the east or west coast is not the same as road tripping through rural Arkansas.

I try to avoid rural Amurica as much as possible. I actually pretend it doesn't exist. It's better that way.

Originally Posted by sor

This just underscores why charging network deals between manufacturers are dumb.

Very dumb and it puts the consumer in the middle.

Originally Posted by sor

Any NACS vehicle should be able to pull up to a Tesla supercharger and charge. Any Tesla should be able to pull up to this new network and charge. Done, end of story, end of charging wars.

That's how it is in Europe. Government regulations essentially forced Tesla to standardize its charge port to CCS2 (how ironic) and allow every EV to charge at superchargers.

Consistently voting for those in government who are for more government regulation and offering incentives to manufacturers and consumers should get us there.

[Barry123]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

I try to avoid rural Amurica as much as possible. I actually pretend it doesn't exist. It's better that way.

You crack me up!

Just curious - given your spelling of Amurica, I wonder if you're originally from Philly?

[NomoTesla]

Originally Posted by Barry123

You crack me up!

Just curious - given your spelling of Amurica, I wonder if you're originally from Philly?

No, I'm just trying to speak in the rural lingo. Amurica, diabeetus, etc.

[Barry123]

Originally Posted by NomoTesla

No, I'm just trying to speak in the rural lingo. Amurica, diabeetus, etc.

Having lived in the Phila area for ~30 years, Amurica is definitely a Phillyism.

Almost 15 years ago, I moved from Phila to Denver. I thought it was bad driving across PA, but then I hit Nebraska. Ugh! (sorry, Paladin!)

[TXSchnee]

Originally Posted by JK479

Our x5 (non hybrid) gets about 480 miles. I like EV’s but why take a cheap rental car on a trip and leave a nice car at home. Right now gas is easier. On the IX I get barely 290. And I’ve seen where a hot day (95 degrees) killed the battery just during it normally.

There’s a debate because it’s great but just not there for ease of use.

It has been over 100 degrees in ATX every day for three weeks, and triple digits don't leave the forecast any time soon. Explaining the heat to provide this info, my Taycan hasn't seen any range reduction in the triple digit heat, zero change from when it was 70-80 degrees this past spring. So maybe something is wrong with your iX, or maybe the cooling system isn't as efficient? I do know my iX M60 never, ever hit ranges others on here consistently got, but mine was a lemon with some major issues (hence trading it in my Taycan CT 4S).

[Paladin1]

Originally Posted by Barry123

Having lived in the Phila area for ~30 years, Amurica is definitely a Phillyism.

Almost 15 years ago, I moved from Phila to Denver. I thought it was bad driving across PA, but then I hit Nebraska. Ugh! (sorry, Paladin!)

I've lived all over the world, including about half of the lower 48, so not my native land, but the state slogan (for real): "Nebraska. Honestly, it's not for everyone." Any crowd that can write that for their tourism site is my kind of people! Trim the mizzen, hoist the Jolly Roger and be damned to the invading hordes! We have all your corn!

[Barry123]

Originally Posted by Paladin1

I've lived all over the world, including about half of the lower 48, so not my native land, but the state slogan (for real): "Nebraska. Honestly, it's not for everyone." Any crowd that can write that for their tourism site is my kind of people! Trim the mizzen, hoist the Jolly Roger and be damned to the invading hordes! We have all your corn!

Being in a neighboring state, we get your tourism commercials. First time I saw that one, I thought to myself, "seriously?" And then there's the one about the sand crane migration. Needless to say, I haven't been back to Nebraska since I traversed it during my move west